The Most (In)Famous Mary Sues in Fiction

Bond, James Bond.

Most often found lurking in the pages of fan fiction, Mary Sue inspires rage in all who read her. Afflicted with such traits as unflinching goodness, inexplicable sex appeal, and comically overwritten good looks, Mary Sue is the character the author wishes she could be. Fanfic Mary Sue saves Dumbledore’s life with the world’s greatest healing charm, is proposed to by Mr. Darcy AND Captain Wentworth at the same garden party, and possesses striking green eyes that Peeta Mellark can’t stop staring into. But once in a while, Mary Sue (and her male counterpart, Gary Stu) makes it into an actual published book…

James Bond: If Casanova mated with a particularly ruthless robot, their child would be James Bond. He’s refined, clever, mad successful with the ladies, and able to keep a cool head in any situation. Just once we want to see Bond getting hit in the nuts with a football, or yelling at a Starbucks barista about soy milk.

Sara Crewe (A Little Princess): This little angel loses her father, her wealth, and her position in one afternoon, descending from the life of a benevolent boarding-school princess to that of a lowly scullery maid. Does it test her goodness? Not at all! She befriends a fellow maid and a friendly rat, and draws on her boundless inner resources to adjust to her terrible new life. When she’s a day away from starving, a friend of her father’s discovers her by chance, and restores her to her former, rich life. The rewards of unbearable optimism in the world of early girl fiction!

Charles Wallace Murry (A Wrinkle in Time): We love the Wrinkle in Time series, but we’ve got reservations about Charles Wallace. Younger brother of cranky, wonderful protagonist Meg, he’s a tiny, perceptive adult in a five-year-old’s body—and it’s a little bit creepy. Charles Wallace may be key to the mystical happenings of this timeless and beloved series, but he’s also behaved and articulate in a way that no little kid ought to be. Relax and eat a mud pie, Charles Wallace!

Little Orphan Annie: The sun might come out tomorrow, but right now, you’re on your hands and knees scrubbing floors in a Skid Row orphanage. It’s okay to admit you’re having a bad day.

Beth March (Little Women): We cried as much as anybody when Beth died of scarlet fever, but did she really have to contract the fever while bringing food to a poor family? In a house full of interesting, undisciplined women, angelic Beth was the only one who behaved. Her untimely death only ensured that she would live on in memory as a paragon of perfection to all who knew her. Classic Mary Sue move!

Bella Swan (Twilight): Though she’s a self-pitying downer who makes no time for her friends, Bella is adored by all. Her first day of school is, like, soooo hard for her, despite the fact that every person she meets instantly presents her with a best friend badge, and/or falls in love with her. Clumsy Bella is the Mary Sue of her generation.

Who’s your favorite/least favorite Mary Sue?

  • Marci Yesowitch Hopkins

    Did you not notice that in every Bond book, he ends up in the hospital or presumptively dead? At the end of You Only Live Twice, he’s been poisoned and loses his memory. Off-book, he goes to Russia to find out who he is and is brainwashed and sent to kill his own boss at the beginning of The Man with the Golden Gun. He is nearly always discovered in the act of spying. He gets away with nearly nothing.

  • Lawanda Cates Masters

    My favorite “Mary Sue” Is George Bailey from It’s a Wonderful Life. He silently and heroically suffers his dead end existence in the hometown he wants so much to be away from. He lets everyone and everything keep him there for the sake of selflessness. What a guy. My least favorite Mary Sue is PollyAnna. She was sooo full of “gladness” until it happened to her. Sure, she was perky, cute and encouraged a lot of people, but she needed to remember her own advice she so glibly gave to suffering people, herself.

  • Jennifer Williams

    the character’s not from a book but: Karen Cartwright. Enough said.

  • Myra

    I don’t think Charles Wallace is a Mary Sue. He’s precocious. He’s a prodigy. Perhaps even on the autism spectrum. But I don’t really see him fitting the Mary Sue description.

    Sookie Stackhouse, however, becomes a Mary Sue over the course of the Southern Vampire series. She starts off well enough. But by the fourth or fifth book, everyone either loves her or wants to bed her.

    • Evoru

      I’m sorry, I spotted a typo…just a small one…I think you meant to say “everyone either loves her or beds her”. If someone wants to bed Sookie, all they have to do is wait a novel or two. No need to fret, folks!

    • Ed

      Charles kind of is. It’s even addressed in _A Wrinkle in Time_, when they say he is so competent he thinks he can do anything and has to be rescued. I think “Mary Sue’s” work better as secondary characters a more normal character can compare themselves to. Mary Sues’s in Children’s literature are a little different, because children see themselves as being much more mature then they are…so they often don’t notice how unrealistically the kids are written.

  • AirDave

    “Just once we want to see Bond getting hit in the nuts”
    ((O_O))

    Did you not READ Casino Royal? Or see the film adaptation with Daniel Craig? It’s right there! Le Chiffre’s torture! Hello! 😉

  • leonamarie20

    Ayla of the Earth’s Children’s series by Jean Auel,

  • Aubrey Pedersen Sorenson

    Ouch. Hard to see beloved childhood characters placed in the same catagory as *Bella* who is just insufferable. Although I must agree about Charles Wallace. He’s always creeped me out, even when I was a kid. But Beth? Really? She’s such a background character, really, that I think calling her a Mary Sue is just not fair.

  • http://www.goodreads.com/joeleoj Joel Cunningham

    “UGH, all these boys won’t stop asking me to the dance!” —> Shut up, Bella.

    • Common Sense

      How dare she not be attracted to any of those guys….

      • http://www.goodreads.com/joeleoj Joel Cunningham

        Yeah, they should have just sensed that and not been nice to or talked to her at all, leaving her alone to leer at the pale guy in the corner.

      • J Lopez

        how dare all those boys be attracted to her…

    • The Heroes of Hope

      One can die from laughter reading that.

  • Anne Pilaro

    Ayla from Clan of the Cave Bear and the rest of that series. She cooks, she cleans, she hunts and gathers her own food and for her family, she has mad medical skills, she delivered her son then trekked miles off in the snow to hide in a cave with him for a week to save him. If that’s not enough, she discovered horseback riding and canine companionship, she invented the travois, the horse-drawn sledge, the atlatl (OK, that was with Jondalar), the flint-based lighter and the sewing needle. Oh, and in her spare time she communicates with the spirit world, has become the most accomplished shaman in her time and will be the successor to the First of the Zelandonii. AND she’s beautiful, married to Jondalar with a beautiful baby girl, and every man wants to have sex with her. I hate her… 😉

  • SJH2012

    Laurell K. Hamilton’s Anita Blake. That was my first introduction to Mary Sue-ism.

  • jerseygirl

    Melanie Wilkes in Gone With The Wind. Who can be more perfect than her?

  • Caitlin Saltzman

    Isabelle from the Mortal Instruments and Tris from Divergent, also Katniss from the Hunger Games.

  • euge

    I don’t think the author understands what a Mary Sue is. The only Mary Sue on this list is Bella Swan.

    • waltzme

      What do you think a Mary Sue is?

  • Common Sense

    Beth is a Purity Sue not Mary Sue. Sara is sort of a Purity too but nowhere near a Mary- she has a pretty unlikable temper at times that can lead her to be brutally honest in ways even the read doesnt always like.

    You should have added Ginny Weasley (much more of a Sue than freaking Bella Swan, the most overused character *ever* for this, just because the sheep have an irrational hatred of all things Twilight), Tauriel, Belle from BATB, Rapunzel, Katniss, and Hermione in the movies.

    • waltzme

      I agree about Beth, but Sara strikes me as a straight up Mary Sue. I can’t think of any time her temper was shown in any way the reader wouldn’t like; she only gets mad at people who deserve it. Possibly my all time favorite character in children’s lit…and a massive Sue. But it never annoyed me since A Little Princess is a morality tale.

      I never read Twilight but agree about the irrational hatred.

      • Ellen Fleischer

        Well there is that one time when Sara blows up at Ermengarde for asking if she’s unhappy.

  • SamIAmWithMangaAndDoujinshi

    When I think about it, most of the time, Mary Sues find their way in published books through stories that just so happen to be in “1th Person Perspective.” Don’t get me wrong here, I do know there are plenty of books not in that category that also have Mary Sues, but when you think about it, this generation of Mary Sues often comes from the “1th Person Perspective” books people have made.

    I, as a writer (though, I admit I am an amateur one), would not make that choice and instead have chosen to keep myself “restrained” in some forms. When people write in “1th person,” I’m sure the first thing their mind realizes is the freedom they have this way (if not, correct me if I’m wrong). In this “freedom,” they come to insert themselves in situations, and fantasies they’d wish were real, and blam! That’s how one’s makes a Mary/Gary Sue!

  • Makoto
  • Ooz Lander

    Bond was very obviously only added to fill the “guy” quota. Read any of his books and it is extremely obvious he is not remotely a “Marty Sue.” The articles author apparently only watched the movies.

    For those who read voraciously both male and female authors its very apparent that many female writers (particularly in young adult fiction) pander to “Mary Sue Syndrome” and make heavy use of “Author Avatar” on a far greater basis than male writers. Why this is you can speculate all you want, but it is easily seen.

    A few examples were the author actually admits it:
    Stephanie Myers Author Avatar: Bella Swan (maybe the worst ever)
    J.K. Rowling: Hermione (smartest, prettiest, answers to everything, etc. etc.)
    Laurell K. Hamilton: Anita Blake (Everyone wants her, all powerful basically)
    Cassandra Clare: Clary Fray (Bella with more powers)

    The problem with “Author Avatars” is that their utter perfection/superiority to all other characters comes at the expense of realism of good story telling. It ruins what could be an otherwise great book or in other cases detracts from the importance of other characters. Example: harry Potter is an amazing book series but Hermione’s Mary Sue /Author Avatar status makes her both a deus ex machina and a McGuffin. She shows up constantly with the answers to everything, always has the right spell, the right equipment, and she is always the smartest, best prepared, etc. etc. etc. One would be right to wonder if it should have been titled the “Muggle Born May Sue and Her Two Dumb Sidekicks.”

    • SMDH

      Hermoine is far from a Mary Sue. If you’ve read the books, you’d know that she’s an incredibly flawed character.

      • Ooz Lander

        I appreciate that you say she is heavily flawed but you give no examples. I am making a guess that you are a fan of Hermoine or just Harry Potter stuff in general. And that’s fine, I am too!

        I have read all seven books repeatedly (like millions of others have) and I am a huge fan of the the whole “Potterverse.” I have even gone to universal studios for the Harry potter world there. I can be a huge fan and still acknowledge that Hermoine is a Mary Sue, as well as an author avatar for Rowling (J.K. Rowling has admitted repeatedly in the media that Hermoine is her author avatar).

        Hermoine fits the criteria for a Mary Sue exceedingly well, that does not mean she is not a fun character. Batman is a fun character, Batman is also quite possibly the biggest Mary Sue (or Marty Stu) in the world and he has a fanboy legion who practically worships him like a God (seriously any thread discussing Batman as anything less than “Better than everyone, period” will be trolled to insanity by Batman-worshiping fanboys).

        The point is we may be a big fan of a character but that does not mean we have to ignore things like them being to flawed, to smart, to perfect, or a Mary Sue/Marty Stu.

        • SMDH

          Firstly, in likability. While most Mary Sues are generally adored by everyone and anyone, Hermione isn’t. Lots of people dislike her because of her know-it-all and teacher’s pet tendencies. In fact, the only reason Harry and Ron even started liking her is because they went through a life-threatening situation together. Contrast that with Bella Swan who is plain in every since of the word, but is somehow inexplicably adored by every single person who meets her. Secondly, her personality. As I’ve previously mentioned, Hermione is an irritating know-it-all, and that aside, she can be condescending and narrow-minded (she ridicules Trewlaney and Luna for their beliefs). She also basically tried to force the elves into freedom thinking she knew better, when they were clearly miserable when they weren’t allowed to work for a master. Even going so far as to hide clothing around the castle to trick the elves into touching them. Thirdly, is she an author avatar? Yes. But your mistake is in assuming that all author avatars are terribly written by default, when they aren’t. Hermione is an author avatar, but it doesn’t interfere with the story because Hermione isn’t perfect and is still a very well written character.

          • Ooz Lander

            Thank you for your opinions on why Hermione is not a Mary Sue. It is easier to understand when you have examples. I will address your comments by breaking them down.

            “Firstly, in likability. While most Mary Sues are generally adored by everyone and anyone, Hermione isn’t. Lots of people dislike her because of her know-it-all and teacher’s pet tendencies. In fact, the only reason Harry and Ron even started liking her is because they went through a life-threatening situation together. Contrast that with Bella Swan who is plain in every since of the word, but is somehow inexplicably adored by every single person who meets her.”

            Some Mary Sues are liked by everyone, certainly not all. The main difference is all the “right” people or good guys like Hermione and the “wrong” or bad ones do not. In fact it is a Mary Sue trait that not liking the Mary Sue means you are wrong… just like both Harry and Ron where sorry and wrong they did not like her (classic Mary Sue). In reading the books it is nearly 100% the bad guys who dislike and of the few non bad guys, all others come to love her (again classic Mary Sue).

            You could argue that Hermione was not to perfect becuase originally she had large teeth and bushy hair but even that was done away with to make her a perfect beauty (she shrunk her two slightly larger teeth and used product to fix her hair) for the rest of the series, thus making her more of a Mary Sue.

            Bella is a blatant Mary Sue, but even she has people who did not like her and she was clumsy. it is not these tiny things that absolve one of Mary Sue status, particularly when stacked against the rest of the monumental evidence.

            “Secondly, her personality. As I’ve previously mentioned, Hermione is an irritating know-it-all, and that aside, she can be condescending and narrow-minded (she ridicules Trewlaney and Luna for their beliefs). She also basically tried to force the elves into freedom thinking she knew better, when they were clearly miserable when they weren’t allowed to work for a master. Even going so far as to hide clothing around the castle to trick the elves into touching them. ”

            Unfortunately Ron pointing out Hermione (he is really the only one who does it regularly and he also has a crush on her) is a “know it all” is not near enough to absolve Mary Sue status, in fact it ensures her Mary Sue status. Hermione does actually always Know it all, she always has the answer, the tool, the spell, etc. etc. etc. which is one of the big reasons she is a Mary Sue. Hermione is always right, read the books gain she is always right. She never gives the wrong advice or makes the wrong call (classic Mary Sue).

            You had an interesting (and I agree) view of the House Elf situation and your right abut them being happy the way they where. BUT in wanting to free the elves she is once again lifted up as the one who is the most righteous, the only one who sees the hardships of others that everyone else ignores and only she wants to free the subjugated! It is just another classic Mary Sue move.

            “Thirdly, is she an author avatar? Yes. But your mistake is in assuming that all author avatars are terribly written by default, when they aren’t. Hermione is an author avatar, but it doesn’t interfere with the story because Hermione isn’t perfect and is still a very well written character.”

            I never assume all Author Avatars are terribly written, nor did I ever write that or give any remotely reasonable reason to assume that from my comments. That is 100% you reading something in to my comments that is not there. I am not angry over it, I just want to make sure you acknowledge and recognize your insult/mistake. It is true many Author Avatars are Mary Sues, but not all are. Easily half the thousands of books I have read that were published in the last twenty years have author Avatars in them with young adult fiction authors being the worst offenders.

            Thank you for acknowledging (as a quick google search could confirm) that Hermione is an author avatar. I have had very unpleasant Potter-worshiping fans become very verbally abusive over my statements of fact. You have been very polite and I appreciate it.

            I agree that for the most part Hermione being an author avatar doesn’t interfere with the story because Hermione is still a well written character. However Hermione is a Mary Sue (beautiful, loved, knows everything, always has the right spell, has everything needed at all times in her bag, etc. etc. etc.) and that did detract from the story at times. She was used as the McGuffin and deus ex machina quite liberally by Rowling to progress the story, and that is fine but it does make Hermione a Mary Sue. Hermione is the Tardis, the Sonic Screw Driver, Batman’s utility belt, heck even Batman at times (as far as conveniently always knowing just the right thing at the right time as batman always does in Justice league).

            I like Hermione, I also like Batman, and I like Anita Blake (well not so much anymore its gone off the deep end with her perfection and unlimited power… like Batman), and many other Mary Sue/Marty Stu characters.

            It has been a fun dialogue. If you love Hermione and just don’t see her as a Mary Sue, well that is just fine and good. I think we both agree the books are amazing and I for one still like Hermione… Mary Sue or not.

          • SMDH

            “Some Mary Sues are liked by everyone, certainly not all. The main difference is all the “right” people or good guys like Hermione and the “wrong” or bad ones do not. In fact it is a Mary Sue trait that not liking the Mary Sue means you are wrong… just like both Harry and Ron where sorry and wrong they did not like her (classic Mary Sue). In reading the books it is nearly 100% the bad guys who dislike and of the few non bad guys, all others come to love her (again classic Mary Sue).”

            I disagree with your assessment. Firstly, Harry and Ron didn’t decide it was wrong they didn’t like her; they just naturally grew together because of their shared life-threatening experience. And even after they became friends, those same personality flaws that caused them not to like her in the first place would often still cause arguments amongst them. Secondly, you are asserting that everyone came to love Hermione which is very inaccurate. You’re confusing lack of hate with love – did Hermione have friends? Yes, so did every other protagonist, but she was never some universally adored object of affection like a traditional Mary Sue. She still irritated her classmates and friends regularly.

            “You could argue that Hermione was not to perfect becuase originally she had large teeth and bushy hair but even that was done away with to make her a perfect beauty (she shrunk her two slightly larger teeth and used product to fix her hair) for the rest of the series, thus making her more of a Mary Sue.

            Except she didn’t. She did indeed fix her two front teeth, but she only fixed her bushy hair for the Yule Ball. As a matter of fact, it specifically states in the books that she doesn’t continue to straighten her hair because it was too much work trying to do so on a daily basis.

            ”Unfortunately Ron pointing out Hermione (he is really the only one who does it regularly and he also has a crush on her) is a “know it all” is not near enough to absolve Mary Sue status, in fact it ensures her Mary Sue status. Hermione does actually always Know it all, she always has the answer, the tool, the spell, etc. etc. etc. which is one of the big reasons she is a Mary Sue. Hermione is always right, read the books gain she is always right. She never gives the wrong advice or makes the wrong call (classic Mary Sue).”

            Except Ron isn’t the only person who points out Hermione’s annoying know-it-all tendencies. In addition to her classmates and even some professors pointing this out, the vast majority of her actions in the books do as well (her irritating need to answer every question in class, her stressing out about studying 24/7, and even having to time travel to make it to extra classes.)

            And I also disagree with your assessment of Hermione’s aptitude (and I think it is here that the crux of your argument lies). Firstly, Hermione is a hardworking genius. That much has been well established. An intellectual marvel like herself (who spends the vast majority of her time reading books and studying) not being able to work out the answers to many of the problems they faced would’ve been ridiculous. And it’s not like Hermione just always had the answers off the top of her head, many times she’d have to study up to try to find an answer to their problem. Like when she spent an ungodly amount of time studying to try to find a way to help Harry breathe underwater, but was still unable to do so. In addition, when they were brewing the polyjuice potion, she messed up hers and was turned into a half-cat.

            ”You had an interesting (and I agree) view of the House Elf situation and your right abut them being happy the way they where. BUT in wanting to free the elves she is once again lifted up as the one who is the most righteous, the only one who sees the hardships of others that everyone else ignores and only she wants to free the subjugated! It is just another classic Mary Sue move.”

            I also think you’re wrong here. Hermione was offended by the Elf’s situation, but she wasn’t glorified in her offense. Throughout the entire ordeal, she came off more and more ridiculous. Especially when it became clear that her attempts to free the elves would only serve to hurt them.

            Tl;dr – Hermione isn’t perfect. She was only ever really considered beautiful when she fixed up herself for the Yule Ball, she was able to provide a reasonable amount of assistance given that she was a genius in the true sense of the word, and her personality was often found off putting by those around her. I’m just not seeing how she fits the mold of a Mary Sue.

          • Ooz Lander

            To make the issue a bit more clear here is just a few of the reasons why so many people correctly consider Hermione a Mary Sue.

            A handful of the many Mary Sue traits of Hermione, taken from the books.
            1.) She is considered “the brightest witch of her age”.
            2.) She’s the best student in school.
            3.) She has knowledge of every topic brought up nearly 100% of the time.
            4.) She is never wrong.
            5.) She always knows what is best for everyone (except house elves and this is seen as a positive trait making her an even better person than all others).
            6.) She is better at magic spells than all the actual wizard born students who grew up watching magic performed since birth. That really shoves Mary Sue down your throat.
            7.) Despite being described as having two slightly large teeth (latter fixed through magic) and bushy hair Hermione is considered attractive to everyone. Other girls are constantly jealous of her. And for simple proof (like reading the books) she actually attracts many males including an international sports star that all the girls adored and he picked Hermione in classic Mary Sue fashion!
            8.) Hermione chose to violate her parent’s minds by deleting herself from her parents’ memories. Instead of it being correctly viewed as evil and selfish it was treated as a noble sacrifice… noble sacrifice is not mind raping your mom and dad. But since Mary Sue does it is all good. (Note sending them on a trip to the USA would have been better and made more since to literally anyone but a Mary Sue).
            9.) Hermione doesn’t have any clear flaws or weaknesses, except in book 1 perhaps when she was described as a bit bossy and annoying, but that quickly changed.
            10.) She is given a “Time-Turner” by the ministry of Magic for attending classes! A device considered so powerful and dangerous they were illegal to own. The Ministry kept them locked up and for an utterly insane reason one was given to a teenage girl just so she could go to every class she wanted! Seriously this is proof enough on its own. Hermione is so perfect and brilliant and trustworthy and beyond all others that only she could be trusted with such power… not the actual chosen one Harry Potter to help him in his monumental tasks but the muggle born Mary Sue! This alone clinches it.

            However as stated before, all evidence to the contrary, if you don’t want to see her as a Mary Sue that is just fine and dandy. But please at least acknowledge, even if silently, that others have an obviously very good list of points that say she is a Mary Sue.

          • SMDH


            1.) She is considered “the brightest witch of her age”.
            2.) She’s the best student in school.
            3.) She has knowledge of every topic brought up nearly 100% of the time.
            6.) She is better at magic spells than all the actual wizard born students who grew up watching magic performed since birth. That really shoves Mary Sue down your throat.

            See, and therein the fallacy in your logic lies. Being a genius doesn’t make you a Mary Sue. Geniuses exist in real life and therefore it is only logical for them to exist in fiction as well. A genius is only a Mary Sue if they are perfect in every aspect, which Hermione certainly is not.


            4.) She is never wrong.
            5.) She always knows what is best for everyone (except house elves and this is seen as a positive trait making her an even better person than all others).

            Except we see that she indeed wrong and doesn’t always know what’s best. The house elves situation is proof of this and as I have already explained in my previously message, doesn’t paint her in a positive light like you are insinuating. And the house-elves situation aside, I also mentioned that Hermione was condescending about Divination even though it is in fact a real thing.


            7.) Despite being described as having two slightly large teeth (latter fixed through magic) and bushy hair Hermione is considered attractive to everyone. Other girls are constantly jealous of her. And for simple proof (like reading the books) she actually attracts many males including an international sports star that all the girls adored and he picked Hermione in classic Mary Sue fashion!

            No, that’s actually not accurate. Hermione was only ever considered attractive when she fixed up herself for the Yule Ball. Once. And other girls were not jealous of her constantly. The only time other girls were jealous of her was because she was getting attention from Viktor Krum. And speaking of Viktor Krum, the only reason he was attracted to her was because Hermione, unlike the other girls, weren’t fawning over him constantly like he was a piece of meat. So no, it wasn’t some inexplicable Mary Sue fashion attraction – it actually made sense.


            8.) Hermione chose to violate her parent’s minds by deleting herself from her parents’ memories. Instead of it being correctly viewed as evil and selfish it was treated as a noble sacrifice… noble sacrifice is not mind raping your mom and dad. But since Mary Sue does it is all good. (Note sending them on a trip to the USA would have been better and made more since to literally anyone but a Mary Sue).

            Come on, now you’re just being ridiculous. Hermione’s decision here was incredibly tough. She did what she did to protect her parents. Do you honestly believe they’d be fine packing up and leaving for the USA knowing their daughter was in danger? No, they wouldn’t.


            9.) Hermione doesn’t have any clear flaws or weaknesses, except in book 1 perhaps when she was described as a bit bossy and annoying, but that quickly changed.

            I have already mentioned to you her character flaws. Hermione’s bossiness, know-it-all-ness, and condescension never change. And as I have already mentions, causes arguments in virtually all of the books. Perhaps you should reread?


            10.) She is given a “Time-Turner” by the ministry of Magic for attending classes! A device considered so powerful and dangerous they were illegal to own. The Ministry kept them locked up and for an utterly insane reason one was given to a teenage girl just so she could go to every class she wanted! Seriously this is proof enough on its own. Hermione is so perfect and brilliant and trustworthy and beyond all others that only she could be trusted with such power… not the actual chosen one Harry Potter to help him in his monumental tasks but the muggle born Mary Sue! This alone clinches it.

            No, no, and no. Hermione’s knowledge and genius is prodigious and she’s entrusted with the Time-Turner because she’s viewed as trustworthy and prefect by McGonagall, but being viewed as a perfect student and being a perfect student are two entirely different things. And we see throughout the progression of the book that despite Hermione’s genius, she is unable to handle the stress that comes with all of the classes she’s taking. Doesn’t seem very perfect to me. And it should be painfully obvious why Harry Potter wasn’t given the Time-Turner. It’s dangerous. And while Hermione was viewed as a perfect student, Harry was far from it. He had already proven himself to be reckless. Entrusting it to him would’ve been asinine. And given his past, ignorant, because he might try to go back in time and save his parents which would cause untold damage.


            However as stated before, all evidence to the contrary, if you don’t want to see her as a Mary Sue that is just fine and dandy. But please at least acknowledge, even if silently, that others have an obviously very good list of points that say she is a Mary Sue.

            I’m sorry, but no, I feel that is asinine. I think to classify her as a Mary Sue is to only view the character from the surface without ever actually spending time to analyze her.

          • Ooz Lander

            You arguments simply do not hold weight under scrutiny. It would seem you just are a fan of Hermione who does not want her to labeled by anyone (including me a complete stranger) as a Mary Sue. Your decision to call valid points asinine becuase they go against your opinions is very telling. I have made a point of not insulting or devolving this conversation in to insults or pettiness. I have nothing against Hermione and have already stated I am a fan of the Harry Potter series (evidenced by my knowledge of every aspect of it). I can admit the truth and see the writing right in front of me.

            I do find it interesting that in your defense you actually acknowledged points that support her Mary Sue status yet you chose to ignore them even though you provided them: “Hermione’s knowledge and genius is prodigious and she’s entrusted with the Time-Turner because she’s viewed as trustworthy and prefect” FIRST a note: The prefect status did not come in year three when the Time Turner was given. Second you just agreed with part of the Mary Sue classification with your own words.

            You seem to be coming more from appeals to emotion and emotional opinions rather than facts and the writing. On one side you keep defending how awesome Hermione is while also saying she is not… that is of course rather confusing. That is fine you have your opinion and there are lots of Hermione fans who share it, just as I have millions who share the view Hermione is a Mary Sue.

            I wish you well and see no further point in the discussion. You have you opinion and I acknowledge you have it. I wish you the best. On a side note I would love for there to be a book series about Hermione’s and Ron’s kids.

          • SMDH

            No, I’m sorry, but I think it’s the opposite. Your arguments are all just surface observations of her that, when scrutinized, are clearly false. I have no doubt that you are a Harry Potter fan. The problem is that you don’t seem to be able to analyze, which is frankly an extremely necessary skill when judging a character (who is universally acclaimed btw).

            As for your second point, no, I didn’t agree with Mary Sue classification. As I have already mentioned, being a genius and being a Mary Sue are two entirely different things. And being viewed as perfect by McGonagall and being perfect are two entirely different things (a point I made in my comment, btw). Also, I never said she was a prefect in that book. I said she was viewed as perfect. Prefect was a typo and you should’ve been able to ascertain that given the context presented in the rest of the sentence (and the fact that I spelled it correctly two times after that).

            As for your third point, no, you seem to be picking and choosing “facts” to support your narrative while completely ignoring others that do not. My position is confusing to you because, as I mentioned, you do not seem able to analyze. I’m saying that Hermione has her awesome points (her genius) and her flaws (her bossiness, condescension, and know-it-all tendencies), and is a complex character (i.e. not a Mary Sue). And you may have those who share your view, but the numbers who share my view are in far greater numbers.

            I can respect your opinion and right to have it, but I do disagree with it. Though I suppose that’s the beauty of literature. :/

          • Ooz Lander

            Well it was interesting reading about your love of the Hermione character and your opinions about her, I did hope you would spend as much time analyzing the character objectively as you did criticizing me on a personal level (I noticed quite a bit of transference in that last post). I would recommend holding back on the insults and personal attacks in future dialogues with people (especially ones who are polite to you). Well good luck to you and no matter how much of a Mary Sue Hermione is to millions you can still love her.

          • SMDH

            If by polite, you mean condescension wrapped in a thin veil of “politeness,” then sure. ^__^

          • Ooz Lander

            As with all the information and facts given and ignored, I am sure you will take it as you will, reality be darned. ^__^

            Again though I wish you well.

          • SMDH

            Lol, last I checked – I provided counterarguments to every single one of your shallow observations, and when you couldn’t do the same, you simply tried to end the conversation. Food for thought. ;D

          • Ooz Lander

            You regurgitated the same stale points while I provided new points and a full list of proof that you simply ignored. I get it, your mad you were proven wrong and that Hermione is a Mary Sue. I tried to leave things politely but instead of being mature and reasonable you delved in to insults, lies, and the trollish claim that everyone agrees with you… all, evidence to the contrary. Now you are simply seeking the “Last word.”

            I delivered facts, you delivered angry opinions. And now you are going for the classic immature move of trying to blame me for your faults. You do transference quite well. I would recommend a proper education, a lot of maturing, and perhaps a course in basic rational thinking.

            You had no chance of convincing me of your opinions, becuase your opinions are based on your emotional opinions and not facts. At any time you could have moved on from my original post (after all you wanted this dialogue not me why else post), but instead you stayed and regurgitated the same comment over and over adding nothing new or useful. There was no further point in continuing.

            I would add some silly quote about “Food for thought” but honestly I don’t think you are capable of reasonable thought at this time.

            And yet again, despite your insults and lies, I still wish you well.

          • SMDH

            Lol, no, I broke down your list (which was mostly just repetitive nonsense that I proved false) and I addressed each individual point you presented. Instead of responding, you simply tried to end the conversation because you are unable to debate my points. Because they are facts, and you seem to only be capable of dealing in opinions. Ignorant opinions at that. And lol, my trollish claim that everyone agrees with me? A quick google search would show you that Hermione has very high character reception, but as you seem to be allergic to facts, I am not surprised that you wouldn’t take the time to look up anything that’s contrary to your own irrational opinions. And perhaps the most ironic thing about your entire ridiculous rant is that you claim I’m trying to get the last word when you have tried to end this conversation with me several times now, and yet you are still replying. Isn’t that the very definition of trying to get the last word? 😀 Lol, you’re a joke. Please go back to whatever inbred hole you crawled out of. ^___^

          • Ooz Lander

            To be honest I did not read your most recent trolling or as you would call it “comment.” I merely saw that you commented again. For continued honesty I will not be reading any of your future trolling either, I will however continue to reply in the same way I am now. I will do so becuase it is obvious you either are used to getting your way (and that needs correction child) or you are so alone and abused this is your only human interaction… probably a mix of both. Now on to the words you will continue to see as long as you continue to troll little one.

            As expected you went full troll… never go full troll child. You have shown you have no character, no maturity, no integrity, and no education. Copy/Pasting your own comments to the point of it becoming spam is not giving facts child, nor is raging your opinions.

            I know you feel “burned” and “owned” as your kind like to say, but honestly all you need is for your mommy and daddy to have given two cents worth of caring about you to have given you common decency and even a mediocre education. Its not all your fault you have become a useless stain on humanity. Seek help from a professional and look up “Transference” as it applies to you greatly. I realize your pettiness, rage, and trolling are just a way to get any interaction with anyone, even if negative attention… its one of the reasons I pity you so much. I truly feel sorry for sad little people like yourself.

            I pity you more than those who may be forced to be around you in real life… becuase while they can escape your lies, rage, negativity, narcissism, and ignorance, you can never escape yourself.

          • SMDH

            LOL!!! Now, if I was a nice person, I’d let this go, but since you decided to continue commenting, I’m going to embarrass you. You said you didn’t read my last comment, but in your last comment, you replied to specific points in my last comment. LMAO!!!!! How pathetic are you?? Sweetheart, please, stop while you’re behind. It’s sad at this point. XD

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