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CHAPTER 1

ARTISTS

"WE ARE EVERYWHERE"

Interview with Martin Sorrondeguy

Martin Sorrondeguy is a legendary figure in the US hardcore scene, best known as the singer for the bands Los Crudos and Limp Wrist. He runs the record label Lengua Armada Discos and directed the film Beyond the Screams: A US Latino Hardcore Punk Documentary (1999). For his photography visitmartinsorrondeguy.com. The following interview was published on August 21, 2010, by DIY Conspiracy (diyconspiracy.net).

Let's start with an introduction to you. Who are you? How old are you? You were born in Uruguay, but located to the USA in an early age. How did you grown up as a latino-kid and what brought you to hardcore/punk?

My name is Martin Sorrondeguy. I am 42 years old. I was born in Uruguay and was raised in the US. I came into hardcore punk when I was a teenager. I wanted something different than what was existing in my area at the time. We have many gang and violence problems there and I did not want to be a part of that. I needed something different, and punk was new and interesting for me and it provided options for an alternative life.

How did you come up to form the band Los Crudos and become involved in the DIY scene?

DIY ethics came to me before I was in Los Crudos. I had learned through DIY that there were always ways to having things happen that were outside the limits of what mainstream culture presented to me. Los Crudos was able to really make out impact due to a strengthened DIY belief system and methodology.

What brought you to the radical politics expressed by the band?

Our lives that we were living, our history as immigrants into the US and the circumstances we were faced with, led us to take a radically political stance. It was more of a necessity in order to survive and keep our sanity.

Can you give us a brief history of Los Crudos and the other activities and projects that you were involved in during the band's existence?

Crudos began in 1991 on the Southside of Chicago. We sang all our songs in Spanish as a means to communicate with other Latino immigrants about our frustrations with the way Immigrant populations were being treated in the US. We took our message and involved ourselves with punk as well as nonpunk people, artists, activists and social workers within our community. We had built alliances with many people and we did benefit gigs, records, and involved ourselves in meetings as well as actions to make change.

It seems the main purpose of Los Crudos was to unify the Latino/Chicano punk community and expose the message of anarchism, immigrant rights and anti-racism to these poor Latino neighbourhoods in Spanish language. What was the reason to broke up with Los Crudos and are you satisfied with what you have achieved with the band during all those years together?

We really spread our message to many types of communities not just poor Latino communities. The impact that Crudos made went noticed because we spread ourselves out to even wealthier white communities as well. If we had stayed only in poor Latino communities Crudos and our activities would most likely not have been known. We stopped because it became too much about the band and music. It seemed that we were being pressured to play gig after gig and tour again and again, and it seemed that we were being cornered in a way that if we committed ourselves to gigging only we would lose our impact message wise, so we decided to stop the band.

After Los Crudos you started the band Limp Wrist and exposed your sexuality. Why did you become involved in the gay rights issues so late? Why not talking about being gay when you were in Crudos? And what's the story behind starting Limp Wrist, was this a serious project in the beginning?

Actually, I was talking about being gay when Los Crudos were playing, it was when I first "came out" due to the conservativism within the many communities I felt it was important to talk about these issues. So I did. There were two songs on the Crudos LP that address the issues of love and sexuality.

Limp Wrist was always serious but we chose to take a humorous angle to make our point instead of an angry approach which was successful in the US.

I guess there were a lot of troubles when you have started Limp Wrist, because the lyrics and live shows of the band can be easily seen as extremely provocative with all that nudeness, homoeroticism and making fun of all the gay clichés. What was harder for you, to spark the social awareness and talk about political ideas with Los Crudos or to threaten homophobia and be an all-gay hardcore band with Limp Wrist?

All of the above were challenges, and as an artist and activist one has to create strategies to making your voice and point heard. Both bands were vehicles to express many things and we wanted to be smart about what we did and steering away from just being confrontational. That is what is usually expected from people we have lived with confrontation and are accustomed to it, so doing something that does not engage aggressiveness is strategizing.

What's the difference between the Queercore scene and the political DIY scene? Is the queer scene open to the different social ideas and things like supporting the immigrants and minorities, being involved in socialmovements, animal rights etc., or it's mainly single- issue oriented on identity politics and only few people are aware of other things except being gay?

It is very difficult if we begin to speak in terms of whole groups of people. So with any group of people you have a lot of overlap into differences because we are not flat human beings we all have differences. So when speaking about a gay person who then is also an immigrant or from a Third World nation or if you are a gay person that is poor as opposed to the stereotype of having money. Or if you are transgendered it gets more complicated/interesting. There are folks who juggle all of these dimensions of their lives so in punk queercore is an identity and it comes with expectations and a consciousness/awareness. So you cannot identify as queercore and not have a greater scope of the world around you, in fact, being queercore or a gay/lesbian/queer/trans punk has opened up expanded dialogue and actions to make real equitable change in the scene and in the world.

Some people recognize gays only as middle or upper class privileged people, who spend all of their free time in gay bars and clubs. What is it like to be immigrant, gay, working class and living in a poor Latino neighborhood?

This is what I was getting at above, you do have the mainstream gay world which can be what you described above and it is what gets media attention. Gay is not an umbrella group that we all fit under it is impossible to flatly define, so when people can embrace that being gay transcends the economic and social boundaries that we are used to see, we can begin to understand that the possibility of having someone who is gay living next door to us or within our own families is very real and it is happening, this goes for any community Latino/White/African-American/Asian etc., etc.

As it seems gay bars and clubs are the most recognized places where gay people could meet other gay people and socialize. But these are also places where they spend a lot of money on alcohol and drugs. What's your opinion on this as Straight Edge person? Do you think alcohol, drugs and AIDS are a big problem in the mainstream gay communities and is there a way to stop this? What was your reason to become Straight Edge?

I no longer want to call myself Straight Edge as of two years ago. I was calling myself Straight Edge though when I first went to gay bars 15 years ago and I was comfortable with being Straight Edge it was part of who I was and I did not feel I had to surrender that in order to gain acceptance from gays who frequented bars. Gay bars in most cities are places where we can be social and meet one another but there are other places to meet as well, now there is the internet and one no longer has to go to a bar to meet other gay folks. The issues of gays and money is a very mainstream look at the gay world, there are many gays who do not have a lot of money so if you have I suppose you spend if you don't have money spending is not an option.

You told me about your work as a high-school teacher. What do you think of the educational system in the USA and don't you have troubles with the school-board or angry parents, who don't want the teacher of their children to be gay? Are you talking with your students about LGBT rights, homophobia or historical events like the Stonewall riots?

I am an art/photo teacher so this is my focus of teaching at times current events and social issues come up in discussions during class, I think my job is to make sure the discussion is healthy and a true dialogue not one that comes from anger and intimidation, most students are able to have these discussions in this manner. I do not walk into a class room and say "Hi, I am Martin and I am gay", I have never heard of a teacher doing this. There are students that are gay or lesbian and sometimes they can tell when a teacher is gay or lesbian but it depends on the context if that issue comes up and how it is dealt with. I once taught in an alternative high school where I was asked to teach a queer history class and it was great. This was an alternative school that was small about 40 students and a place where students were tired of being lied to and as a teacher I could be honest and prepare these students for real world experiences not hide things from them in hopes of them never having to be exposed to anything. Sort of strange but that is how fear of the unknown begins and many conservative approaches do this.

What's some other stuff that people should know about the history of gay rights movement except Stonewall?

There is so much, I think having an awareness of many great works and activities created by gay/lesbian/bi/trans people is important. Queers did not just riot, we are in medicine/arts/politics etc. We are everywhere!

I guess here in Bulgaria no one is familiar with the history of the queer punk scene. So can you give us some information about the first and about the most important bands with gay members or people unframing the issue in the hardcore/punk scene? In the song "The Ode" you're singing about people like Gary Floyd and Randy Turner, who are they? Which are the most important gay bands today and which queer bands do you recommend to hear?

The earliest of US punk in particular had many many queer people involved and active in the scene. The more known people were Darby Crash of the Germs, Tomata Du Plenty of the Screamers, Bob Mould from Hüsker Dü, Gary Floyd is the singer of the Dicks, Randy Turner is the singer of the Big Boys. There were also many many old punks who experimented with sexuality but may not have identified as gay. Some even prostituted themselves to men like Dee Dee Ramone. So whatever the reason sexuality was pretty fluid.

What about the Latino hardcore/punk scene? You made the movie "Beyond The Screams: A Latino/Chicano Hardcore/Punk Documentary", but it seems there's a big difference since the time you did the movie? Bands like Los Crudos, Huasipungo, Youth Against are not active for years. What's happening now?

In the Latino Punk scene there are tons of great bands and a strong scene of it, some of the bands are Ilegal from Montreal, Canada, Sin Orden is still happening, Tuberculosis, La Voz, Rayos X, Polizkitzo, Outraged, Ultratumbados, Venganza, Mugre, NN, Peligro Social, Ruleta Russa, and tons more there is some great stuff happening.

Tell us more about your bands and musical projects besides Los Crudos and Limp Wrist.

I have newer bands, one is a Spanish/Latino punk band called NN. I also have a total hardcore band called Needles, I am also still running Lengua Armada Records and releasing many great bands that I think need support.

Bands like Bad Brains or ... Vegan Reich ... are well known for their negative views on homosexuality. What's your opinion on these bands?

Everyone has had their opinions and they are entitled to them. As a kid I grew up listening to Bad Brains, and I loved their Positive Mental Attitude and that spoke to me and I lived it, it is a shame that H.R. did not.

Is there anything you want to add? Something important that you would like to impart, but I forgot to ask you about?

No, not really, I think there are truly great discussions that need to happen, I am willing to partake in these discussions whenever I can. I hope the folks in your scene can read this and have a newer understanding of what we have been doing. Thank you for the time and curiosity.

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TOTAL LIBERATION

Interview with Eva "Genie" Hall

Eva "Genie" Hall is the former vocalist of Gather (2004–2007). From 2012 to 2018 she sang in Rats in the Wall. Today she is in a new straight edge band with some members of Gather. She lives in California, where she spends her free time volunteering at a wildlife rehabilitation center, doing art, reading, and drinking tea. You can follow her on Instagram at xevageniex.

I always saw Gather and 7 Generations as two bands that brought together the dedication and militancy of 1990s vegan straight edge with a broader understanding of social injustice. They were able to build bridges to activists who perceived the bands from the 1990s as too macho and narrow-minded. Is this just a fancy theory I made up or do you think there is truth to it?

I'd say you nailed it, at least with Gather! Our love for punk and hardcore had everything to do with the progressive ideas and radical politics that appealed to us when we were first introduced to those genres. To us, those ideals were one and the same with the music. During the time right before Gather formed, the straight edge hardcore scene in the Bay Area where we were all living felt very apolitical, had a grossly misogynist "jock" vibe, very few women were in bands, and so we just didn't feel much connection to the music scene, despite being straight edge and into hardcore music ourselves. We talked about how we wanted to bring the anarcho-punk ethics we all believed in into this "macho" hardcore scene that we loved musically. Why not start a band that sings about radical feminism and anarchism, but still has mosh parts and breakdowns? We were angry, and that kind of music felt most fitting for us to express that!

One reason why many radicals in Europe eyed vegan straight edge suspiciously was because the focus on animal rights and environmental issues seemed to override social causes. Were you ever confronted with this while playing and touring with Gather?

For the most part, we did not really experience that. Instead, it truly felt like anarcho-punk kids (who may have previously been skeptical of straight edge hardcore) did also see the value in being sober, and they felt like their ideals were still represented in this kind of music that typically didn't address them. We were playing anarcho-punk fests with bands like Resist and Exist, and it felt as natural as can be. It really felt like there was unity between punks and hardcore kids who might have otherwise been part of different scenes. Crusty kids were wearing X's on their hands, and camo-clad hardcore kids were wearing circle-A patches! Activists who were yelling into bullhorns at demos the day before were also singing along up front at shows about things they were passionate about.

There was only one show that I can recall where we felt like we did not fit in because of our politics, despite being vegan and straight edge, and it was surprisingly at a show with other prominent vegan straight edge bands, but who tended to have a more conservative following. One vegan straight edge band that was Christian and had members that were extremely patriotic and, I think, in the military played after us and they started making a hateful speech about how women actually don't belong in hardcore and shouldn't go to shows. It created a weird tension, and some of their friends ended up attacking our drummer, who is my brother, and our merch girl. Both ended up having to go to the hospital, and our merch girl had to stay overnight, got some teeth replaced, and had a lot of emotional trauma when recalling the whole ordeal. It was a sad reminder to us that just because someone is vegan and straight edge does not mean they care about social issues. They do not care about equality and compassion for all, and in fact, we have nothing in common with them fundamentally. I sometimes would forget that not everyone got into hardcore through punk ethics. It was horrible, but it reminded us that even if our bands sounded similar musically, without the ideals it meant nothing to us, and there was no sense of community at all.

"Total Liberation" was not only the title song of your first EP but a theme that Gather as a band seemed based on. Can you explain what the concept meant to you? Do you still hold the same convictions?

In 2003, there was an event in Pennsylvania called Total Liberation Fest. It had hardcore bands like Undying playing one day, and the next day had different speakers who talked about animal, earth, and human liberation struggles. Dustin, Allan, and I were all friends and rode a train all the way out to that fest, and it is what inspired us to start Gather. (Randy was in a band that was actually playing the fest.) We knew we weren't alone in our longing to bring these issues back into hardcore on the west coast. Earth Crisis had that iconic "Animal Liberation" shirt, and the very first shirt Gather ever made was a mock version of that with the same font, but it said "Total Liberation." We simply wanted to be clear that we weren't a single-issue band and that we believed in animal, earth, and human liberation. For us, that meant anarcha-feminism and the end of patriarchy; it meant acknowledging that a "vegan revolution" doesn't challenge the problems with modern totalitarian agriculture; it meant that we were aware that consumerist choices about our diets wouldn't lead to a magical downfall of oppressive capitalist systems; and it meant acknowledging the horrible costs of imperialism/globalization and industrial civilization. "Total liberation" was our way of talking about "intersectionality," I suppose. And yes, I certainly do still hold those same convictions!

"I Hate Ayn Rand" is one of my favorite song titles ever. Do you think that the hyper-individualism propagated by Rand has left traces in hardcore and DIY culture as well?

Thank you! I think since it is so ingrained in all of American culture, and most of the industrialized world, many people even in the hardcore scene probably don't question that philosophy. The weird thing is that I think a lot of people are drawn to hardcore because it's a community, a "family," and that's the opposite of individualism. I would hope no one would confuse "individualism" in the Ayn Rand sense of the word (that everyone is on their own, we shouldn't look out for each other, community is bad, etc.) with the struggle to not rely on corporations, and the desire to keep hardcore from being an "industry," that is, to defend DIY hardcore.

What are the political issues you consider most important today?

Wow, everything is so fucked, where to even begin? With climate change, the depletion of topsoil, the killing of ocean life, and the displacement of indigenous people and the destruction of their land, I'd say the greatest issues are the ways in which capitalism, and all of industrialized civilization, is devastating this planet and everything on it. Our society as we know it could not exist without deforestation, strip mining, industrial agriculture, and the exploitation of the poor. Corporations, which have gained their power through extreme wealth, are running this world and destroying everything for the sake of profit. Taking them down is nearly impossible, it seems. Even though there's incredible class inequality, the poor don't seem to have much solidarity with each other and tend to continue to blame each other and identify with billionaires who don't give a fuck about us. As long as we continue to see each other as the enemies while worshiping the rich, things will never change.

How does straight edge play into this? In the song "Escalate," one of the 2000s most important declarations of straight edge, the first line says: "Straight Edge cannot be considered the final goal / but in order to achieve the things that count the most, we must use it as a tool." Do you still feel that way?

I recognize that there are as many reasons to be straight edge as there are straight edge kids, and that each reason is valid. With that lyric, I was trying to say that being straight edge does not make someone superior to someone else, especially if they just embrace the same negative aspects of mainstream culture and aren't trying to make this world — or at least this scene — a better, more inclusive place for everyone. So, I do not think that one has to be an "activist" or something if they're straight edge. But I was referring to an unjustified sense of self-righteousness amongst straight edge kids who were otherwise assholes who just happened to be drug-free.

How about the song's last line? "If you think that we have things in common just because we both wear X's on our hands, you're wrong! / We both may abstain from substances, but that is not enough to make a bond." Who are the people you didn't — or still don't — want to bond with?

I think the point I was trying to make with that song was specific to the local scene at that specific period of time. ... I'm pretty sure it was the first song we ever wrote, and I didn't really think anyone but my close friends would ever hear it, haha. Where we were living, there were a lot of straight edge kids and bands, but they were pretty apolitical, embraced conventions that felt oppressive to us, and, for the most part, didn't seem any more progressive than a frat boy at a college or something. That's a huge generalization of course, but it did feel like no one cared about anything, and they just used "straight edge" as a way to feel superior to others. It wasn't uncommon to hear homophobic jokes, and some people even threw around shit like "Women can't be straight edge," etc. Hardly anyone was saying anything on stage about their beliefs or passions. They were all very "safe." Shows felt soulless and empty to me, and I did not feel like I had any real connection to the people there, even if we were all X'd up. So, like in my previous answer, my point was that simply being straight edge does not make you better than anyone else, especially if you embrace and perpetuate a lot of the fucked-up aspects of mainstream culture.

"Escalate" (2004)

Straight Edge cannot be considered the final goal / but in order to achieve the things that count the most, we must use it as a tool. / There is more to it than simply being drug free. / It's the clarity of mind to act most effectively against this system we're fighting. / It's the first step, it's the key to unlock you from your apathy / but if you stop at that, you're just a waste to me. / You've broken your addiction, but now you just sit / as stagnant as a passed out frat-boy — you're no threat! / I know plenty of Christians who don't drink / Do they deserve praise for being revolutionary? NO! / Do you really believe that Straight Edge alone is going to do shit? / If drugs are the reason everyone's so passive, use your sobriety to act! / Do you think it's just about health? / Then how does it affect anyone but you? / Now that you're liberated, what are you going to do? / Merely Straight Edge — not enough! / Merely Straight Edge — step it up! / If you think that we have things in common just because we both wear X's on our hands, you're wrong! / We both may abstain from substances, but that is not enough to make a bond.

In the 2010 documentary Edge: Perspectives on Drug-Free Culture, you speak about how women in the hardcore scene were "discredited," "judged harder," and made to "feel uncomfortable." Have things changed since then?

Oh yes, they certainly have! Compared to ten to fifteen years ago, when it was rare to see women in hardcore bands, today there are so many more women in bands. It's staggering how much more inclusive it feels (even though it's still not perfect of course), and how we have carved a space for ourselves in a scene that once was such a "boys' club." It kind of feels like there was a revival of riot grrrl aspects, but this time, instead of being separate from the hardcore scene, they were incorporated into it. It's clear that a lot of the women in current hardcore bands reject the idea that they need any male approval, and they're here to be themselves and have fun, and "fuck you" if you don't like it. They're singing to each other, they're addressing things they care about, they're contributing their voices, and it's awesome. Of course not everyone is suddenly super progressive or identifies as a feminist, but there's no question that it's much more common to see women up on stage now, or moshing, and just taking up space, and it's much more accepted, which makes me so fucking happy.

How did you yourself cope in the environment you started out in?

To be honest, when we first discussed the idea of having me sing in Gather, I was a bit nervous, because the scene was so male-dominated and I had heard so much misogynist bullshit that I was afraid to put myself out there. However, we were all such good friends, I knew that we would have fun, and I felt it was important to go for it since it made me sad that women were so underrepresented. The majority of the response we got was positive, and I felt a lot of support from other women in hardcore. In this "boys' club," I wanted to have a song that represented the experiences of other women in the scene, so I interviewed some of the women I saw at shows all the time. The song "Who Belongs?" is a bunch of different quotes and ideas that I took from those interviews. There were only a couple times in the three years of playing shows that we experienced overt sexism, but the vast majority of my time in Gather was very positive and I connected with so many other like-minded people.

In a more recent interview on the blog Conversations with Bianca, you said, "Another struggle I've been having has to do with getting older and still being involved in punk/hardcore and holding on to all my ideals from my youth. ... I'm happy that I still care about these things, but it certainly is more alienating the older you get — you're more of a weirdo to others around you who are the same age, but who 'grew out of it.'" I think most of us who are beyond thirty feel in similar ways. What do you think makes the difference? Like, why do you think that, as you said in the interview, you're "doomed to be a weirdo forever"?

Obviously, the older you get, the more friends break edge and just generally become "normal" and live conventional lifestyles. I get that they're just over "the struggle," they don't want to always live against the grain, and they just want to enjoy a simple life of not overthinking everything. While I know that embracing that way of living might be easier in many ways, it still seems so bland to me, and I'm just not interested. I've heard people who stopped being straight edge say that it is just a "youth movement," which seems like a cop-out to me. The pressure to participate in drinking culture only seems to grow the older we get and it is completely normalized. People assume you're either super Christian or a recovering addict if you don't drink — they can't fathom that someone just isn't interested in intoxicating themselves for fun! Even aside from straight edge, I've seen other friends who used to take a stand against oppressive systems, like capitalism and classism, simply buy in completely because they themselves were born into class privilege and want to continue benefiting from that without giving it a second thought. There are so many examples, but what it comes down to is that I've always felt like an outcast in many ways, even amongst other outcasts, and I don't think that will ever change. My circle of friends becomes smaller as I've gotten more picky about who I give my time to, so that can be seen as alienating. But it's more alienating to me to be surrounded by vapid people who don't question the roles and paradigms they were born into. Thankfully I love being alone!

After Gather you were in Rats in the Wall. What were the main differences between the bands?

Aside from being completely different musically, the biggest difference for me was that no one else in Rats in the Wall really shared my ideals or convictions about anything. I also didn't really know any of them until I joined the band, so we were sort of just thrown together and had to make it work! It didn't feel as natural as it did in Gather. I felt limited in the sense that I didn't want to sing about things that I didn't think the other members could represent, but I also didn't want to censor myself. For the most part, the others in Rats were pretty apolitical. The first few years were great, but later on, their goal for playing in a band was simply to get "maximum exposure," and I got extremely disappointed when there would be talk about how "image is all that matters" and it's important to "sell ourselves" and be a "professional band." It wasn't that way in the beginning, but it was clear that's what they were trying to go for eventually.

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Excerpted from "X: Straight Edge and Radical Sobriety"
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Copyright © 2019 Gabriel Kuhn.
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