Geek Debate: Star Wars vs. Marvel

This past weekend, Avengers: Age of Ultron made more money at the box office than any movie since…well, The Avengers. And today, May the Fourth be with you, is unofficially-officially Star Wars Day. This serendipitous aligning of the two primary planets of modern geekdom raised the question: which universe is superior, the one populated by a rainbow array of superpowered heroes, or the one found a long time ago and far, far away?
We decided to stage a debate. Taking the side of Star Wars is your editor, Joel Cunningham. And standing with Earth’s Mightiest Heroes, resident pull list guru Ross Johnson. Two franchises enter…well, two franchises leave. We’re equal-opportunity geeks here. But we do love to argue.
Joel: I want to preface this debate by saying that I am not a Marvel hater; I wouldn’t have seen 11 movies in the MCU if I was. But I continue to be frustrated by Marvel’s high barrier to entry. As a kid, i was obsessed with Star Wars, and it was easy, because Star Wars was three movies—a whole galaxy far, far away, packed into about 7 hours, with a beginning, middle, and end. Well, technically a middle, and more middle, and an end. I wanted to get into comics, but figuring out where to start, with decades of continuity and reboots staring me in the face (not to mention storylines split across dozens of titles) was impossible. Advantage: Star Wars.
Ross: No doubt that there’s an awful lot of Marvel around, whether your talking comics, movies, or TV. That doesn’t so much mean that there’s no entry point, but that there are a million entry points. When I was a kid, I picked up comics that looked fun with whatever spare money I had. I didn’t necessarily understand all the references and crossovers cameos and stuff, but those hints of a larger world stretching back decades were exactly what kept me coming back for more. And let’s not pretend the Star Wars Expanded Universe never happened. Throw in decades worth of multiple timelines, video games, (and a further trilogy films, and then some), Star Wars loses a lot of its edge for approachability.
Joel: Fair enough—I do like to pick and choose what I’ll allow to be a part of my personal Star Wars canon (I’m sorry, what’s a midichlorian?). But there’s also the simple fact that the Star Wars universe is delightfully…straightforward? I love that the basic mythology can be summed up in a a few thousand-generation-spanning sentences from Alec Guinness, who is able to tell us everything we need to know about the Jedi and the Force in a single speech. Eleven movies in, I still couldn’t tell you with certainty what an Infinity Stone is.
Ross: Well, nobody really knows what an Infinity Stone is. But I return to my point about about a larger world; sometimes a little confusion can be interesting. And both universes allow for a lot of picking and choosing in order to decide what “counts.” I think we’ve all got our own personal canon.
One area where I’m going to have to give Marvel an advantage is in tough female characters. Storm, Captain Marvel, Jessica Jones, Scarlet Witch, Black Widow…it hasn’t always been perfect, but Marvel’s got a big stable of them. Princess Leia’s cool, but she’s about it in Star Wars.
Joel: You already invoked the Expanded Universe, so I’ll grow the ranks to include Mara Jade, Jaina Solo, and others. Sure, if we’re just talking the movies, Star Wars hasn’t done so hot…yet. But the ’70s were a different era, the prequels were hamstrung by backstory, and the new movies are reportedly a conscious corrective (fingers crossed). We can probably agree that both franchises could treat the ladies better onscreen (or at least make a few Black Widow toys!).
Ross:  But, yeah. Definitely need some Black Widow toys, because ScarJo is doing an awful lot of heavy lifting in those movies.
Joel: At least Star Wars can create a bad guy you’ll remember after leaving the theater. Darth Vader, the Emperor, heck, even Darth Maul are iconic. I literally could not tell you the motivation of any of the MCU villains beyond “Loki…jealousy?”
Ross: The Darths are definitely iconic, but as motivations go, Loki’s childhood jealousy isn’t much poorer than Vader’s. It took three prequels to learn he went to the Dark Side because he fell in love with a lady, which is bad for some reason? Plus, Marvel has a pretty deep bench of villains, even if some of their motivations are a little thin. Evil is evil.
Joel: Perhaps part of my problem with Marvel baddies is that the films haven’t treated them particularly well. The MCU is all about the heroes’ journeys. Whereas a small, dark part of me always kind of wanted the Empire to win. And of course, if you buy into the revisionism of the prequels, the whole thing was really Vader’s tale. I can’t imagine a six-film saga about whoever that Dark Elf guy in Thor 2 was supposed to be.
Ross: I’ve already forgotten what that Dark Elf guy was all about, so I will give you that one. But Loki is way cooler than Thor in the films. And jumping studios, I’m going to bring Magneto up to bat. Even odds that he could take Vader in a fight, and his backstory is easily as good.
Joel: Oh man. The coolness of the X-Men alone threatens to derail my whole argument. Mystique is a killer villain and a compelling female character. And Star Wars has, to the best of my knowledge, never managed time travel, a big mark in the minus column.
Ross: There’s got to be time travel somewhere in the EU, right?
Joel: Well, at this point the whole thing is technically an alternate timeline. I can say with certainty that I’d rather hang out in the Star Wars universe. The toys are much cooler. As fortresses go, I’ll take a Death Star over the helicarrier any day.
Ross: OK, but, Death Stars and helicarriers are similarly easy to destroy, and while Death Stars just blow up in space, helicarriers tend to crash into major metropolitan areas. That’s way more entertaining. I’ll give you this: Marvel has many, many cool gadgets (the Iron Man armor, Cap’s shield, the Infinity Gauntlet, Mjolnir), but none is quite as cool as a lightsaber. Quantity of cool gadgets, Marvel wins easily. But, man… I want a lightsaber so bad.
Joel: But…
Ross: SO BAD.
Joel: … I guess my preference comes down to cohesion. Star Wars doesn’t range as wide, but it all fits together. I have trouble wrapping my head around the varying power levels of the Marvel heroes. Hulk can punch a giant robot dragon to death but somehow Tony Stark can build a suit that can stand up to him? Hulk can’t lift Mjolnir, but he can beat up a god? What would happen if Thor punched Hulk? Some sort of black hole?
Ross: OK, well, Hulk isn’t worthy to weild Mjolnir, which has nothing to do with their powers.
But, OK, in general, I’d say you’re right about the cohesion. Excluding the EU stuff, Star Wars has been one man’s vision, and it’s comprised of six movies as opposed a jillion issues of a million different comics. Marvel’s had countless different voices riffing on it characters and themes, while Star Wars, at least until The Force Awakens comes out, has been all George Lucas. It’ll be interesting to see how things changes, given that Disney (who, you’ll remember, also owns Marvel) is looking to put out a LOT more product.
Joel: Maybe I’m suffering from a lack of imagination. Maybe having to sustain a story month-to-month across multiple fronts over 60 years (and dozens of movies) means raising the stakes to a degree that defies narrative.
Ross: It’s certainly easier to create something self-contained, which the Star Wars films largely are. And while I can agree on George Lucas’s genius when it comes to that original trilogy, I think you’d also agree that, when it comes to creator figures, Stan Lee is about 150 percent more fun than Lucas.
Joel: But when it comes to flannel shirts, George wore it better. So I guess it comes down to a big universe where literally anything can (and has) happened, and one guided by fate, destiny, and one guy’s odd obsession with B-movie serials?
In a sense, this whole discussion is largely moot. These are both beloved, blockbuster, multi-billion-dollar franchises. We can probably count on one hand the number of people reading this who won’t see both Age of Ultron and The Force Awakens.
Ross: Very true—I’m certainly not one of them. And I’ll try not to be disturbed that your love of Star Wars seems to primarily involve rooting for the evil Empire and the dark forces running it.
Joel: What can I say? I appreciate a sharp-looking uniform.
Where do you stand?