Poured Over: Ava Reid on Juniper & Thorn
“So much classic fantasy exists in this sort of timeless state where, you know, whatever fantasy world it’s set in has kind of always existed….I’ve always been really interested in kind of disrupting that and kind of setting my books during periods of like, enormous change and upheaval, like, I’m really interested in the idea of a fantasy world that has not always been the same, because that’s not how the world works, and kind of taking apart these things that are really taken for granted.”
Ava Reid knows how to do unforgettable fractured fairy tale retellings with fabulous, fierce heroines, hidden magic and family ties based on Hungarian and Jewish folklore. The Wolf and the Woodsman was her debut novel and her latest, Juniper & Thorn, is a gothic horror retelling of the Grimm Brothers’ The Juniper-Tree, and she joins us on the show to talk about world-building by starting from the present and working backwards, diversifying the stereotypical Eastern European fantasy setting, killing off characters for the right reason, designing the cover art, her upcoming YA fantasy debut, what she’s reading right now, and much more with guest host Kat Sarfas. And we end this episode with TBR Topoff book recommendations from Marc and Becky.
Featured Books:
We Have Always Lived in the Castle by Shirley Jackson
The Juniper-Tree by Brothers Grimm
Matrix by Lauren Groff
Our Crooked Hearts by Melissa Albert
This episode of Poured Over was produced and hosted by Kat Sarfas, and mixed by Harry Liang. New episodes Tuesdays and Thursdays (with occasional Saturdays) here and on your favorite podcast app. You can also find video editions of Poured Over on our YouTube channel.
Full transcript for this episode of Poured Over:
B&N: Hello, I’m Kat Sarfas, forever bookseller at Barnes and Noble. Today we are joined by the lovely Ava Reid. Ava is the author of the highly acclaimed and best selling the Wolf and the Woodsman and Juniper & Thorn. Welcome and thank you so much for being here with us.
Ava Reid: Of course, thank you so much for having me on really excited.
B&N: Many of us, including myself, fell in love with you and your writing, reading The Wolf and the Woodsman, which became quite a darling on the TikTok scene. So there’s a lot of fire and passionate fandom there. What was that experience? Or what has that experience been like for you because you’re still living in it? Um, particularly around your debut?
AR: Well, it’s funny, I’m not on TikTok at all. So I am really only experienced at secondhand when my friends send me these TikTok videos that they see on their feed on my book. It’s very sweet. So I got like a perfectly, you know, tailored, watered down experience of TikTok that’s very pleasant. And I’m insulated from a lot of the kind of negative things that go along with that. So it’s been nice, but I think most authors who are doing their second books feel similarly, in that it’s a blessing and a curse, right? Because you have so many people who enjoyed your debut, and you want to speak to that same audience and you want to hopefully, you know, replicate the success to some degree but you also want to grow as a writer and you know, you’re never going to be able to please everyone. And I think when there is such a powerful expectation from readers, it does feel like a lot of pressure, especially because Juniper & Thorn is quite different from The Wolf and the Woodsman. So I would say a blessing and a curse. It’s really nice to see that some people’s enthusiasm about Wolf and the Woodsman has really carried over from Juniper & Thorn, and people have really, so far shown up for it in a really amazing way.
B&N: I mean, I would say, when I talk to a lot of authors, especially people who are in it, I feel it definitely feels like more of like a positive experience, I think, yes, there’s just a lot, to your point, there’s now that expectation, which kind of sets the bar, I’m sure when readers come to Juniper & Thorn they’re not going to be disappointed. It is and I love that it’s sort of, you know, in that same world, so it’s just like, you know, you just continuing that love that you that you sort of got from that first read so retellings thinking of you know, what’s what’s going crazy on both topics. Retellings, reimaginings around fairy tales, mythology, folklore, classics, so they’re all really having this moment right now, which is really wonderful to see, to see the excitement for these titles. What is it about the stories that sort of capture the imagination and keep us coming back?
AR: I thought a lot about this because The Wolf and the Woodsman has been called a fairy tale retelling, which it isn’t really. But I’m okay. I’m okay with that. But yeah, but with Juniper & Thorn, I set out to write a fairy tale retelling. And so I really actually became like very obsessed with this idea of like, what makes a good fairy tale retelling, and why they’re currently so successful in industry and publishing. And what I think I can say is that we come to stories that are familiar to us. And we want to see these, you know, motifs and themes and symbols kind of reoccur. But at the same time, I think fairy tales are almost by definition, things that do not conform to, you know, modern conceptions of storytelling. They’re really no characters as we would kind of think of them today. There are archetypes, but there aren’t really characters. And those are two different things. So I think there’s a ton of room for reinterpretation. And I think that’s a huge part of the appeal is just the ability to really take something that at the same time is like this huge, something that’s so enormous in our culture, and so well known. Then also put your own spin on it in a way that can be really, really compelling and with tools that, you know, we have as modern authors that you know, didn’t these storytelling tools that didn’t exist in the past and ways of thinking that didn’t really exist in the past.
B&N: I think it’s interesting when you were talking just now about about characters. Particular, I think, you know, within even mythology within folklore within fairy tales. perspective, you know, and oftentimes that sort of female perspective is just interesting, we’ll just leave it at that. Or it’s just, you know, it’s obviously a lot of these stories were kind of pulled from a different perspective, from the male perspective. And it’s just kind of seeing these characters almost get their due or to be flushed out in a way that just sort of the modern readers are interested, you know, it’s thinking of like, Penelope, I mean, how many, you know, she is such a compelling character, but, you know, you she’s very sort of one dimensional. And you kind of, you know, she is what she is, and then, you know, there’s all these now sort of reinterpretations of who she was and expanding her story. And I mean, that’s just one example. I mean, and they’ve been done within fairytales within folklore and in such, and it is really interesting, to be able to say, Yeah, this story was great. And I loved it when I was younger. But I really, I always want to know what happens that character, I always, you know, there was always more to that. And to your point, you’re kind of using fresh voices, new tools to sort of explore that. So yeah, I think it’s really exciting. And I think your exploration of that in Juniper & Thorn is really wonderful. So, in Wolf and the Woodsman and Juniper & Thorn, you sort of weave, talking about mythology. So you sort of weave this beautiful tapestry. You got, you know, ancient magic, there’s historical fantasy, folklore, with religious and cultural tensions, sort of, you know, woven in. You tackle politics, identity, xenophobia. So what is it about fantasy, you know, more of these, these sort of mythological retellings, that offers up this sort of perfect canvas to explore these stories, that I have a second part to that I’m kind of dying to know, the research that brought you to them, but let’s start with that first.
AR: I was actually just I was thinking about this a lot last night, because I kind of figured this, like might come up in the interview. And I think one of the hallmarks for a long time of Fantasy has been a sort of timelessness. And you hear that term applied to fantasy, a lot like, Oh, this feels so timeless, and so much classic fantasy exists in this sort of timeless state where, you know, whatever fantasy world it’s set in has kind of always existed. And it’s always been there, and you know, it with the assumption that it will always continue to be. And that’s something that has, I’ve always been really interested in kind of disrupting that and kind of setting my books during periods of like, enormous change and upheaval, like, I’m really interested in the idea of a fantasy world, that has not always been the same, because that’s not how the world works, and kind of taking apart these things that are really taken for granted. And fantasy, like this idea that, Oh, there’s this country full of, you know, green people and green people come from the Greenland and they all have the same exact beliefs as each other, and they all have the same relationship to their identity. And this state has always existed, and it’s kind of this like, natural thing that is grown out of the earth. And that’s really not true. And states are created, you know, through very different means and through violence. And that’s something that I don’t see too often. I’m not going to, you know, say them he only person that has ever explored this far from it. But I think that I don’t, I didn’t see that too much in fantasy. So I was really interested in exploring that and really interested in kind of exploring the marginalized within that, right, because when you’re building a state, and you’re crafting an identity, inherently, it’s going to be somewhat exclusionary. So I became really interested in writing from that sort of marginal perspective, which again, I don’t think is done, in my opinion, as much as it should be in fantasy. Yeah, and I think there’s something really fascinating and compelling about upsetting the sort of timelessness of fantasy as a genre.
B&N: I love that. Yes, all of that. Okay, so then that second part, what was the research that brought you here?
AR: I actually started, like, almost backwards. When I was thinking about the woven, the Woodson were, what got me interested in Hungary is actually modern Hungarian politics, and kind of the complexity of modern Hungarian identity and kind of how you can see the threads of both Christianity and you know, this pre Christian religion woven into contemporary Hungarian identity. And that’s true for I mean, a lot of countries in Europe very, very true in Eastern Europe in particular. And, you know, nationalism in Eastern Europe is very heavily tied to these pre Christian traditions and kind of this Neo paganism. So that was really fascinating to me. And then I kind of looked back and I started, you know, reading about this period of history and kind of the transition from, you know, pre Christian paganism to, you know, Christianity and how that completely aligns with the creation of, you know, what we would call the modern Hungarian state. So I, like I started actually from the present, and then I looked kind of backwards, which I don’t know if that’s, you know, kind of a normal method of worldbuilding. But that’s what I did.
B&N: You know, I think a lot of times when you’re obviously we’re living, this is the time we’re in and it is sort of that curiosity of how did we get here, history inevitably repeats itself? And so kind of to be able to go back and said, you know, where did this start? And then yeah, and see all those threads that then, you know, bring us here continue to cause problems or continue, you know, to do shake up these systems. So, aside from the folklore and mythology, which, there’s so much there, there’s a lots of very dark, Gothic and horror elements swirl throughout Wolf and Juniper. So gothic literature was probably my first true love. And so I have to ask, what are your Gothic inspirations? What were your Gothic inspirations?
AR: One of my favorite books in the world is We Have Always Lived in the Castle by Shirley Jackson. And I think the influence is very clear if you’ve read that book. And obviously if you’ve read Juniper. Shirley Jackson is absolutely my biggest kind of writer leave inspiration. And when I first started thinking about doing a retelling of the Juniper Tree, I started thinking about what makes it so disturbing to people because it kind of has this like unofficial title like, Oh, this is the darkest, Grimms fairy tale and I was like, Okay, well, why will you have violence against children and a lot of fairy tales, you have a lot of, you know, even Red Riding Hood the grandmothers even by a wolf and then the wolf is dissembled. I’m like, That’s horrifying. Like, that’s so messed up. But you don’t hear that you know, called a dark fairy tale. Hansel and Gretel, you have this kind of cannibalism aspect, but you don’t typically hear this being you know, this doesn’t get the like, kind of title of darkest fairy tale. I was like, so what is so disturbing out of this fairy tale, and I really think that it is like the intimacy, it’s the fact that this, these horrible violences are going on within a single family, it’s, you know, these relationships that are supposed to be so intimate are actually so incredibly fraught. And so, you know, threaded with violence, and that’s what’s so disturbing to people. And once I kind of thought about that, I was like, well, this retelling can’t be an epic fantasy, like the woven woodsman has to be, you know, a tight contained setting, it has to kind of has to be a gothic horror, because it’s about it’s really just a fairy tale about domestic abuse. And I don’t think that at least I couldn’t make that work as an epic fantasy, I had to kind of put it in a gothic setting. And that makes sense to me. And I think that that, to me, feels like it’s carrying the heart of the original fairy tale, even if obviously, I’ve taken plenty of liberties.
B&N: Yes, it is definitely, you know, when you get into Juniper authority, it’s Yeah, I feel like the tone and the atmosphere is sort of set right away. And you do have this almost like this pit in your stomach, you know, when you’re reading these characters and, and the father and you’re just like, oh, this is not, this is not going well. It is true. You know, you read the when you go back to the original, I think, you know, we’re obviously lots of fairy tales have been watered down through time. And how we’re sort of first introduced to them usually is in that sort of watered down version and then when you go in, go back and you you read them? Yeah, it is sort of who gets the award for like, the worst worst mother whereas Juniper, Thorn and the wolf in the woods, man. So they take place so obviously different times and places but they are both set in the same world, this world that you’ve created. So what is your favorite thing about this world that you’ve created?
AR: The sounds may be over simple, but I wanted to create a world with actual like diversity because I was reading a lot of Eastern European fantasy and like so much of it is like so great. As like a Jewish person from Eastern Europe. I never saw this kind of element of like To the actual, like, ethnic diversity of Eastern Europe, and the cultural diversity of Eastern Europe, and you kind of saw these like, blank, you know, wintry foresty settings. And I think that that’s like very the stereotypical, you know, depiction of Eastern Europe. And I wanted to kind of, and obviously, that exists, and there’s a reason why that’s so sad. Because a lot of, you know, you know, what of Eastern Europe is, and particularly Russia, but Hungary and Ukraine, both are geographically quite different. They don’t have the same, you know, flora and fauna. And also, all of Eastern Europe is and has historically been home to these like indigenous ethnic minorities, you know, there’s Jews, there’s Roma, there’s Tatars, there’s all these people that don’t get represented and fantasy because it’s like, you know, it’s either this kind of act of bias, or it’s just like, this lack of knowledge, and, you know, yeah, and unconscious bias. And I was like, Well, why can’t I create a fantasy world that at least attempts to kind of represent, you know, the actual diversity of Eastern Europe, and a way that, you know, a lot of this mainstream, like, Eastern European fantasy, like, didn’t quite didn’t quite do it for me. So I wanted to do something kind of different, and I wanted to represent, you know, my family’s history as well, that I didn’t see reflected there, and how influential, you know, Jewish culture actually has been over, you know, in Eastern Europe in ways that are, you know, both actively being erased, and, you know, unconsciously ignored.
B&N: Speaking of those sort of those cultural tensions, you know, and what they’ve gone through, in a way, you know, all these sort of these different minority groups and how they’ve had to sort of live and, you know, adapt, and it’s, you know, and I think, particularly, in Juniper & Thorn and the father, but his xenophobia, you know, like his, like, just right off the bat, and how he speaks to all these minorities. And it is, it is very telling, and it’s obviously timely, because it’s, you know, something that sort of, we’re so very much entrenched with, but to see that it how, you know, it goes back and how it’s been the struggle, it’s been this consistent way of life for so many people in that region, the historical content, and just sort of those, you know, fantasy is so political, and being able to sort of have that canvas for that. It’s just very, very interesting. And I feel like you get a good, like, you get, like the fantasy, and you get a history lesson sort of wrapped up. And maybe that goes back to why I think there’s so many fans of this sort of genre, I think it’s nice to sort of be able to be able to play and in a way, but then also sort of absorb and learn something new learn, you know, have that representation, have that mirror, whatever you want to call it, to create this world, what your favorite parts of it. So now, you have two books in this world. Do you have plans for future stories set in the same space?
AR: Not at the moment. No, my next book out will actually be my young adult fantasy debut in September 2023, which I’m really excited about. And that’s kind of a dark academia, literary mystery thriller, still figuring out the elevator pitch, the fantasy version of Possession by A. S. Byatt, which is one of my favorite books ever. So I’m really excited about that. No plans right now for future books and more. But I would love to return to this world at some point, I think that there’s so much that could still be done and can still be explored. And a lot of you know, things that I’m interested in digging into.
B&N: Speaking of YA, there’s so much crossover between between if you want to call New Adult Adult fantasy, why I kind of feel like a lot of the readers, it’s just they devour books, devour series, I think we’re just sort of hungry for these epic stories, these fantastical retellings, it’s just this great space to kind of explore different themes, what interested you in in YA and kind of making? I mean, again, there’s so much crossover but that slight leap that jump how was that?
AR: So it’s interesting, I feel like I so I’m like a very early Gen Z slash late millennial depends on who you talk to.
B&N: This one’s like, no, it starts at 1996 It’s like, well, it starts this time. Yeah.
AR: So yeah, either one. I kind of feel like I quote unquote came of age and like the golden age of why I like I remember our reading Twilight reading The Hunger Games reading like The Hunger Games is absolutely like what got me interested in writing original fiction because up until then I was just writing fanfiction which also like I feel like I grew up in such a great time period for fanfiction and I know so many of my friends who are the same age as me, like cut their teeth writing fanfiction, and like these online forums and I think that you see that coming through so much in like, the way that’s popular right now, which is really awesome. The amount of friends that I’ve actually you know, bonded with over like the fact that we wrote Warrior Cat’s fanfiction when we were 11 on like, fiction die that like, is amazing. It felt like very normal to me, I wanted I wanted to write something for you know, for teens and for my teenage self that I would have, you know, loved to read when I was a teenager and I think that’s a very very different task from writing adult fiction and yeah, and it takes some you know, considerations and there were definitely moments when I was writing a study and drowning my wife debut when I I felt actually like felt the real fork in the road where I was like I can go this direction and that will make it an adult book but I you know, I’m going to choose to kind of go this direction to make it YA but I think that it’s very like I felt a very different sense of responsibility when I was writing the characters because obviously in you know, Juniper & Thorn, Marlin goes through some very very horrible things and not that I think that these things have no place and YA absolutely do, you know, disagree with that. But I felt like I needed to give readers a little more reassurance and my why book a bit like there would be a soft landing and I wanted them to kind of trust me more as an author.
B&N: Interesting that you’re talking about fanfiction because I actually had that on my my list of things to discuss because there are so many like the millennial and Gen Z or you know, millennial slash Gen Z however wherever bucket you sort of for yourself and writers who kind of got their first whether it was like taste for writing you know, cut their teeth they got start it was fanfiction. Interesting to hear you say that I was actually gonna ask you if you had any fan fiction floating out there in the universe that you either never want anyone to read or you or that you that you want to talk about it. It was such a a way to sort of express yourself and you know, and kind of get that get those juices flowing as writing you know, inspiration.
AR: Yeah, definitely. I think I honestly think that like a big part of why retellings are so popular is because like they’re they follow a similar logic to fan fiction where it’s like you feel this kind of dissatisfaction with the current canon and you want to like quote unquote, fix it fanfiction. I remember it was so popular where it’s like, this ending was so horrible. This to this character. This is my fix at fanfiction where this character my favorite character is going to get justice, you know, within the narrative. So I think that same mindset really, you know, exists when it comes to these retellings which is really interesting. Yeah, there’s definitely no idea if it’s still you know, around archived somewhere there’s definitely the Warrior Cats, fanfiction. Definitely some Hunger Games, fanfiction. I think fanfiction is awesome. And I think it’s really cool that we’re in this kind of place where we can acknowledge how influential it’s been on, like, the current canon in SF and in romance, as well, um, in genre romance, you really see that a lot too, which is cool.
B&N: You know, it’s nice to see that it’s sort of, it’s getting a little bit more recognition. I feel like even when I was younger, it was like, I remember kind of, you know, I loved Lord of the Rings fan fiction, like that was where I wanted to be and just sort of, like, devoured all those stories. And like, also, like the art, it wasn’t necessarily mainstream, it wasn’t necessarily something that yeah, that like you read it, and maybe, you know, you talk to people where you knew you’re in like a safe space. These are my other fellow fan fiction. And now, there are so many outlets and people are just writing it up, like getting it out there. Like he was saying, like, fix it, you know, essentially give the characters the story and the ending that they deserve, versus what you know fans want and I feel like there’s there’s sometimes I think, definitely, you know, butt heads, but, you know, so it’s interesting, you talk about like that fix it because it’s sort of like yes, obviously, you know, the fans and they want to see certain characters sort of evolve in a certain way, but same time, you know, it’s like, well, from the writer’s perspective, there’s a reason. Yeah. And thought given into why, you know, these characters have the arcs that they do.
AR: And one of the things that I really like specifically wanted to do with Juniper & Thorn was like, because I was always the type of person and fandom who like, the characters that everyone else hated for being like weak and like whiny and like, annoying, like, those are always my favorite characters. And like, those are kind of like the side characters. And like, I don’t know, I always like, I felt so defensive of them. Because I wanted to write that kind of character, that kind of character who you usually don’t see as the protagonist, who’s not like, she’s not like snarky, and like, cool. She’s not, you know, super powerful, she’s not. And there’s nothing wrong with those types of characters that can be super empowering, and like really fun to read and write about, but I wanted to do something really different. And like, honor those characters that are kind of like.
B&N: Yes, again, when you’re exploring fanfiction, it is, you know, opportunity to, like you said, explore those characters that are not, not the typical protagonists. Not what everybody, you know, sort of thinks they want to say, but you know, you know, it’s not until you read the other side that you kind of, say, like, this is it was interesting to explore and read. Again, I’m not gonna give away too many spoilers, but that’s exactly, yeah, and juniper and Thorne, that, you know, are our main protagonists is not, you know, I think in the beginning, even I, Myself was sort of like, okay, you know, like, Girl, like, get a little like, you gotta like, but then, you know, obviously, I’m sending her circumstances, don’t necessarily our very much depict who she is, but I think there are so just like, there’s so many people to explore so many different personalities, I think, being able to sort of depict different facets of, of humanity of, of who we are, and let everyone kind of have had that moment. Um, it just, it’s interesting. And it’s just, you know, fresh perspectives, and being able to step in someone else’s shoes for a time. It’s just, it’s refreshing. And I think that’s why that’s why we all love fantasy so much. I love to ask you about what they’re reading. But I need to, I’m going to take it back for you. Because, again, I’ve heard you numerous times. Talk about your sort of your original love, which is what you were saying before, and you were talking about fanfiction is the Warriors, which I think because like that series will never go away. Like it’s going to live. It’s going to live forever. Yeah. So I think it’s so funny when you hear people talk about, you know, the early stages. And now you know, it’s just kind of evolved into this whole a whole nother Well, I don’t even know what spin offs and you know, there’s so many just like the trees and branching off and whatnot. So tell us about your earliest sort of fantasy in a way like grim dark fantasy inspirations, you know, it’s funny that there’s so many books that they live in sort of that young readers space that much like fairy tales, when you actually, you know, read their the original forms, they’re a lot darker. I think when you’re, you know, you’re a child, you’re just, it’s easy to just sort of, you know, accept what you’re reading. And then when you get older, you’re like, why I was reading that. But yeah, so I need you to I would love for you to wax poetic on your love, offer all things Warriors.
AR: Yeah, it’s actually really funny. So my editor for my YA stuff, she is actually the one who now edits these, like warrior books, the same imprint and so like, during the auction for the book. It has, like, it has to be Stephanie like, this is just perfect. Like, I literally like texted my mom because she was the one who like, when I was like 10 We would like go to Barnes and Noble and like, she would buy me the book and I would literally read like literally read it on the way home while I was walking like bumping into a telephone pole. Finishing it by the time I got home. I mean, for every writer there’s like that book that like made them our reader and also kind of made them a writer and for whatever reason those were the books for me and like I said, they really are quite dark and they have a pretty like, you know, they’re morally complex. They have a complex society. It’s really interesting. I remember being like so devastated by the deaths in those books. Like I can’t like it was my first experience being so engaged in like a piece of media in a way where like, because I was so engaged in because I was so like, upset. I was like I have to do something with all these emotions. I have to fix it somehow, like, my favorite character died. Like two deaths in fiction have upset me more than feathered tail from the Warrior Cats and Finnick from The Hunger Games.
B&N: Those moments where it’s like, you know, like this happens. And I was forever changed and those Yeah, I don’t underestimate the power of a character death. Especially when you’re so impressionable. Yes.
AR: Yeah. Which is a reason why I don’t like to write character doubts, because I know how like infuriating almost it can be for the reader. And just like how the settings I really like to, I don’t know, make sure that if I do kill a character, it’s for a very good reason.
B&N: I think people they do get very attached to covers to packages of the books that I have my own copy of Jr. This is like stunning. And it kind of just like grabs you. I mean, it like there’s it’s just so fascinated, and I’ll pick it up. And I’ll happen to like glance and I’ll see something in the cover that I didn’t even notice the first time. Were you involved in that process, or you were saying like, it’s really sort of important to you.
AR: So I had a very, very specific vision for this cover in mind from the beginning. I even had like the artist big doubt in my mind, I literally sent my editor, a literal PowerPoint presentation exactly what I wanted the cover to look like I’m like, I want it to be like an art nouveau design. Because it’s set in the Victorian period, I want it to have this kind of like, really eerie effect. I want it to be kind of like, not busy, but very like ornate and elaborate. Because I think the prose style of the book is very elaborate and ornate. So I had I like put all these pictures together and PowerPoint and I like you know, wrote all this down. And then I was like this, this is the artist I want you to hire. I put a bunch of their work in the PowerPoint. And I got really, really lucky that my editor just listened to everything I said. And they ended up hiring the artists and Marla Lune, who’s amazing. And he really is, yeah, they’re absolutely incredible. Their work is amazing. And they they completely understood what I was going for with the book. And we had actually like so many really deep and great conversations about kind of the themes of the book, and like how that could be reflected in the art and like I cannot believe how well they did and like capturing Marlinchen. It’s just perfect. It’s like everything I wanted from a cover. And I’m really, really lucky that my vision was executed.
B&N: I love that. I love that you’re like, I have a mood board here this really, I mean, cuz that’s these are these aesthetics that draw people in I mean, obviously, you know, I’m not going to be the one to say you judge a book by its cover, but it is something that sort of draws you in and then what you were saying before just these memories, you know of the book and how how we sort of connect with them and this cover is stunning. And so yeah, I had that when you mentioned that. I was like I had something about the cover. What was the last book book that you read that really just blew your mind?
AR: So I have a couple I’ve been on a really good reading streak lately. So I read Matrix by Lauren Groff which was amazing. I just like to call it medieval nun simulator. Just really, really good book and I also read an early copy of Our Crooked Hearts by Melissa Albert which is amazing. It’s just one of those books where like, you want to reread it because there’s so you feel like you’re gonna get something so different about like every time you read it you feel like it’s gonna be like a unique experience because there’s so much thought and care put into weaving these threads into the imagery and to I mean, I don’t need to sing Melissa Albert’s praises because everyone knows how amazing she is. But this book was like such a it was a trip but it was incredible. Yeah, so those two and I just downloaded spear by Nicola Griffith, which I’m really really excited about, which is like an Arthurian retelling and I’m absolutely loving the boom of like Arthurian mythology kind of retellings. I think it’s awesome.
B&N: Yeah, that was like I when I saw that and again these these retellings were you know, kind of there’s there’s so many buckets to it. So it’s like, you know, you can have, it’s like a buffet, you know, you got your mythology, you have your fairy tales, and there’s even like the classics and yeah, and then when I saw that I was like now this new boom and theory and legend, so multifaceted. So many worlds to explore so many characters to re explore that you know, finally get there do so really wonderful. Juniper & Thorn, everyone. This book is amazing. The Wolf and the Woodsman, amazing. Ava, thank you again. This is really been wonderful. Thank you so much for spending so much time with us. The Wolf and the Woodsman and Ava’s newest book Juniper & Thorn are out now. Thank you so much.
AR: Thank you.