Poured Over: Brian Broome on Punch Me Up To The Gods

“The most important thing is the reader. I tell my students, Look, if you’re writing about yourself, it’s great that you want to get your feelings out. You want to maybe, you know, have some catharsis. You want to get the earliest things out. But, if you bore the reader, you’re done. You know, and it’s important to consider the fact that you’re telling a story…this is not a therapy session, you know, You’re telling a story. And hopefully that story enlightens, or maybe makes the reader think.” Brian Broome’s acclaimed memoir Punch Me Up to the Gods is a stunning story of love and loss, secrets and shame, sorrow and joy. He joins us on the show for a wise and often very funny conversation about spelling bees and ballet, addiction and recovery, how his memoir is in conversation with Gwendolyn Brooks and bell hooks and James Baldwin, what his students have taught him and much more with Poured Over’s host, Miwa Messer. And we end this episode with TBR Topoff book recommendations from Marc and Becky.

Featured Books (Episode):

Punch Me Up to the Gods by Brian Broome

We Real Cool: Black Men and Masculinity by bell hooks

Featured Books (TBR Topoff)

How We Fight For Our Lives by Saeed Jones

Unprotected by Billy Porter

Poured Over is produced and hosted by Miwa Messer and mixed by Harry Liang. Follow us here for new episodes Tuesdays and Thursdays (with occasional Saturdays).

Full transcript for this episode:

B&N: I’m Miwa Messer, I’m the producer and host of Poured Over and I am so excited for all of you to meet Brian Broome. Punch Me Up to the Gods is just out in paperback. You know, it was one of those books that came out during the pandemic and not enough people saw Darnell Moore’s review in the New York Times, it was a Times editor pick. It won the 2021 Kirkus prize for nonfiction. Brian’s columnist at the Washington Post, but this book, this book is really special. Kiese Layman loves this book. Imani Perry loves this book. Damon Young loves this book. Deeshaw Philyaw loves this book. I mean, the list goes on and on. So I’m not alone in my love for this. But Brian, can we set this up for folks who missed the book when it came out in hardcover, because you’ve done something pretty cool here.

Brian Broome: You know, if I were to crystallize it into one word, I think it’s about shame. A lot of it is about shame, about being ashamed of who you are, where you come from, in the things that, you know, we do as young people, I think, sometimes to mitigate that shame up into and including pretending to be somebody else up into and including, you know, abuse of drugs and alcohol, self loathing, you know, etc. I like to look at the book as a collection of cautionary tales, you know, when I first wrote it, when I was writing, and I thought, I hope that like, you know, at least five other Black gay people read this book, so they don’t do you know, the things that I did. And as it has turned out, you know, those kinds of, you know, feelings are universal, you know, so I’m not just hearing from other Black gay men, I’m hearing from, you know, everybody who has had these kinds of like feelings in their lives, you know, growing up and trying to find out who they are dealing with rejection and love, and, you know, and addiction and all these, all these things. So I think the book is just about, you know, coming out of all that, and learning to accept who you are, which I still haven’t completely done. I mean, let’s not be unreasonable. Like, it’s still, you know, a journey, I think, for all of us, just learning to accept, you know, who you are. So I think that’s kind of what the book is about, if that makes any sense at all.

B&N: Yeah, totally makes sense, because I’ve read it twice. So yeah, it makes a ton of sense to me. But you’re also in conversation with Gwendolyn Brooks and her poem, We Real Cool. You structured this book around that poem, which I think is really great. And at the end of the book, you do also come back with a little call out to James Baldwin letters to my nephew. Is this book in conversation with those writers? I mean, how did how did you start working on the physical structure of the story?

BB: It didn’t start off as being in conversation with these two great writers. What happened was, as I was writing it, they wanted in, you know, I feel like, you know, the Gwendolyn Brooks poem, the book didn’t start off as, underneath that structure. I was in the process of writing these essays. And one day, I was in the Chatham University Library, and I was just kind of like, not really, I don’t know what I was looking for. But I found the Gwendolyn Brooks poem, like I discovered it, I thought I discovered it, I was like, no, why is nobody talking about this poem? I had never read the poem before. And as I read at the like, what seven, eight lines of this poem, I realized that this woman, in these few lines has completely distilled like, what I’m talking about, like in my essay, so I feel like, as I was writing it, Gwendolyn Brooks kind of reached, you know, from beyond the grave, and, like, tapped me on the shoulder and was like, Hey, I’m talking about this to you, and can you use this would you like to use this poem, you know, so of course, I immediately you know, had to use it, not only just use it, but like, structure the whole book around it, because I thought she had done such a wonderful job i, because of the column I also then went in read to Bell Hooks, We Real Cool Black Men and Masculinity. And I was like, Oh, my God, these black women are, are, are beating me to the punch, you know, you know, sort of talking about these things in these remarkable ways, yet different ways. So I feel like you know, you know, like, Gwendolyn Brooks kind of, like, asked me if she could be a part of this because she had already done this work. And of course, James Baldwin, you know, has been talking about, you know, blackness and queerness for, you know, for years, like before I was born, you know, and, of course, you know, he had to have a say, you know, in the book, I was really careful about like, not reading him while I was writing it because I didn’t you know, that writer fear of like, you know, kind of you no bite the style of another writer, but I definitely knew he had to be a part of this book, because I want this book to be a part of a conversation about blackness about masculinity and what it is and what it isn’t about femininity and what it is, and what it isn’t all these things that we like, you know, sort of invented around gender. You know, I want this book to be a part of that conversation in my life story, I think plays into that conversation as a Black gay man.

B&N: Absolutely. So when you talk in the book about masculinity, because that really is a big piece of the beating heart of your story is masculinity, the way you’re perceived by your own family, the way you’re perceived by classmates and teachers. And what that means the opportunities, in some cases that it shut down for you, there were opportunities that you lost, because someone decided that their homophobia was more important than your place in whatever piece of the story it was.

BB: Absolutely, you know, I, you know, this, it’s this weird thing about, you know, I’ve come to think of people as, like, when I look at people, I think about, you know, the body that you’re born into, you know, and how the world wants to place you in this category, because of the body that you’re born into, it doesn’t necessarily have a lot to do with you, you know. But, you know, the body that I was born into, has put me into circumstances where people sort of assumed I was one thing or another, you know, as you know, a Black man assumed to be like, you know, hypermasculine good, you know, smooth with the ladies are like good at sports, which is another thing that comes up or just not as smart. You know, as other people that has definitely come up in my life, like many, many times, and I write about it.

B&N: Let’s get to the spelling bee story for a second. I mean, and for anyone who’s read Long Division by Kiese Layman, which is a novel I happen to love, this wouldn’t be the first time obviously, that shenanigans have happened fictional or not at a spelling bee with a Black boy that specifically because there is a perception that in fact, you’re not smart. But would you tell that story here? I think it’s an important piece for you.

BB: Yeah, I mean, when I was a kid, I think I was sixth grade. I accidentally ended up in the spelling bee, I say accidentally, because, you know, I just could spell like I was just really good at it. And it wasn’t anything that I worked at, you know, I would just see a word and it would just lined itself up in my head, and it would just be there forever, you know. And so we had these spelling bees in the classroom, and I didn’t know that they were going to turn into something bigger, like, each time I won one in the classroom, but it was just getting bigger and bigger and bigger, I ended up you know, being in the school-wide spelling bee. So strange, it didn’t compute to a lot of people that a black boy was in the spelling, you know, in where I grew up in, in the time that I grew up, if you were black boy, your job was to be cool. And to do sports, and I couldn’t do either one of those, right. And so the spelling bee story is just sort of my tale of like, just how that all unfolded, and all the things that I felt, you know, at the time, you know, even I mean, as I say, you know, it was from both sides, you know, and in my school, it was only black and white, you know, and from Black kids, I felt this i This feeling of like I was somehow betraying my race and gender by being, you know, in the spelling bee and from white kids, it was just confusion. And, you know, which I think somehow translates I think translates today is like, you know, I think about Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson, and how her intelligence is questioned, you know, which I think is the thing that black people go through a lot, you know, our bodies we like people don’t question our bodies like in terms of like sports and things like that, you know, like basketball, football or whatever, like, you know, nobody questions that but it but we are always seem to be under this level of suspicion with regard to our intelligence. Are we as smart as you know? And that’s the whole thing that I kind of went through like with the spelling bee, you know, even my teacher, you know, would accuse me of cheating. You know, this this woman who was convinced that I was cheating, you know, on like my essays that I used to write essays I used to take my homework back home and like, look up words, use a thesaurus. And like, you know, she was, she wasn’t curious at all about how I did that, it was just automatically that I must have been cheating. And that’s what the spelling bee story is about. I won’t tell you how it ends. But it was definitely a defining moment in my life, I learned something about the way the world viewed me. At that time, you know, during that spelling bee, I learned a lot of things about what Black people expected me to be, what white people expected me to be, and what the world at large, I think expected me to be and I wasn’t yet. And I think that that was the beginning of me trying to just change to make everybody comfortable with my body that I was born into.

B&N: How old were you?

BB: It was a sixth grade. So I don’t know how old are you in sixth grade? 11-12?

B&N: Like 12. Yeah, you’re a little, you’re a kid, you’re a kid, and you’re making decisions about who you are as a person, because other people are ascribing their values and their impressions and their ideas on your body?

BB: Absolutely, but I think that, you know, women and girls go through that immediately, you know, so I don’t think it’s definitely it’s not unique in general. But the things that I went for were, I think, unique to being Black and male at that time.

B&N: I think too, I mean, we’re talking about Ohio, in the 80s, your dad has been laid off, he’s having a rough go of things, he does not have the support services, that he probably needed. Looking back on things your mom is working your brother and sister and you are all in school and you’re trying to figure out how to move forward, you did not have the magical moment where someone gave you a scholarship to a fancy school and you were transported out. And in fact, when you got to college, you had terrible roommates, and you ran.

BB: I ran. Absolutely. Another story about college that I think is interesting is when I got there, I was determined to just free myself, it was the first time I remember, I’m gonna free myself from all of this because I had always wanted to be a dancer. I used to watch ballet on public television, and I would just be swept away by the dancing and you know, so, when I went to college, I was like, I’m gonna take a ballet class, and I did. Well, I signed up for a ballet class. And I bought like the shoes and the belts, you know, and the whole kit. And the first day of class, like, I went to walk to the building. And I looked in, and I saw, you know, men and women, young men and women like getting ready to take their first ballet class. And I couldn’t go in. Because the messages that I had gotten were so deep, you know that, you know, not only do men not do this, not only do real men not do this, but Black men certainly don’t do this, that I turned around, and I never went in. And I sometimes wonder like, oh my god, I could have been a prima ballerina, you know, by now, you know. So, yeah, I mean, that’s just that’s kind of a tangent. But it just reminded me of that story. Like of how, how deep it goes, you know? And I struggle with it still.

B&N: Yeah. And the flip side of that as a teeny tiny girl with pigtails. I was sent to ballet against my will, I really did not want to go. And my mother and my dad were just like, well, you should learn to be a little more graceful. And it was like, have you met me? I mean, even as a three year old, I was like, this is not going to take. And of course, you know, everyone’s dancing to the right. And I’m going to the left, because I was much better with a field hockey stick, like Yeah, stuff made sense later. But the dancing I was oh, no, it was not good.

BB: I bet you were adorable though.

B&N: The hair won, I mean, the pig tails. I have seen the photos of the pigtails.

BB: Absolutely.

B&N: But again, you know, here I am. I’m a girl. And it made perfect sense. And I don’t remember any little boys being in my ballet class. And this was also a number of years ago in DC. So I don’t think there ever would have been little boys in my ballet class just because of the euro and the place and everything else. And you know, I might have also been the only brown kid. I’m pretty sure I was the only brown kid. Yeah, my ballet class.

BB: It’s weird, because, you know, when I think about it, it doesn’t feel like it was that long ago, you know, things are changing. Now, I think things have changed rapidly. I mean, certainly we have a very, very long way to go. A very long way to go. But it feels like you know, if you’re like a Gen X, like I am, that a lot of things have changed, like pretty rapidly and I do see, you know, little boys in ballet classes now, you know, not a lot but I do see them but it just feels like you know, not that long ago. The rules were very clear and very strict about what you were from for men, I think masculinity is more about what you’re not allowed to do, what you are allowed to do, there’s more restrictions than there are, you know, allowances. You can’t do that don’t sit like that don’t stand like that don’t talk like that don’t feel like that.

B&N: Don’t cry. That’s big, right, don’t cry.

BB: And I think that that was something that definitely my father grew up with. And, you know, and I think for black men, it is doubly so than it is for, you know, just for with men in general, you have to be the toughest, the strongest, the most masculine, you know, the most, you know, you know, in a lot of cases like just inaccessible, I think that it’s one of those things that I and as I said, I want this book, to be a part of that conversation that goes toward examining that, and hopefully changing it.

B&N: A lot of what you were taught by your parents came out of a place wanting to protect you. I think it’s just really important to remember that different kinds of parents have to use different tools to protect their children. And I’m not making excuses for decisions your parents made. I’m not making excuses for your dad’s behavior or anything like that. But I think they did the best they could with what they had. And I think that got very complicated for you. Because I mean, that homophobia on top of the racism, and you’ve got a story about where you’re in high school, and you go to a dance club with classmates, and their parents are just the most appalling human beings on the planet, like, no one will drive you home, you are a child. Yeah. And no one will drive you home because you’re Black. Yeah. And the children won’t speak up for you, because their parents are just very clear. The Black kid is not getting in my car. I mean, we’re not talking about Selma in 1958.

BB: Right? This was Ohio and what 1985. But what’s interesting, I think about that story is that, you know, my mother did not get mad at them, at least not in front of me. You know, she got mad at me. She wanted to put the fear of God in me to never put myself in that position again. You know, I think that that’s kind of how my parents handled it. Like, as you say, they, they were trying to protect me. And so in my mind, I got kind of screwed up, because it was like, I thought I was bad. You know, my mother and I have talked about this, like, since, but I thought I was bad. But she was so angry at the way that they had treated me that she just her anger turned toward to me, you know, and don’t you ever put yourself in that position again, in order to protect me, she made me feel horrible. And that sounds backwards. But that’s what happens, you know.

B&N: And you’re the only piece that she can control, she has absolutely no control over these strangers or their children and your classmates. But you’re the piece where she can say this will not happen again under my watch. And it’s so upsetting in so many ways, because there’s no way for her to push back on a system that is bigger than her, bigger than her child, bigger than what happened to you, right? Part of why I bring it up is there’s a direct line, you can see this line where the shame is building in you as a person.

BB: Absolutely.

B&N: Starting with childhood. And there’s not a moment where you’re not being questioned, and you internalize a lot of it. And it’s so you hurt my heart in a lot of ways. As I was reading the book, I will say to people, though, that there’s so much joy and goodness and humor and silliness in a way to this book as well, because you’re just being very honest. I mean, you’ve gone from a person who, no offense, Brian, you were lying in this book, and you were recounting these lies like you were breathing. I mean, dude, you can lie. Well, now we’re in a place where you can see things differently. And the shame isn’t holding you frankly, by the throat. I mean, there are moments where it’s very clear that you are making decisions not based on facts, you’re not making decisions. You’re making decisions because you believe something to be true. Because it’s been foisted off on you.

BB: I just wanted to I mean, and I’m and let’s be real, like I was there are places in this book where I’m absolutely a horrible.

B&N: Yeah, yeah. Without a doubt, without a doubt a doubt.

BB: And I don’t I do not excuse it. I think like part of the, you know, the thing about staying sober. Is that you gotta like, you have to acknowledge, you know, that you were horrible for whatever reason, you know, you were horrible to people. And I manipulated people and I used people and I treated people as a means to an end. You know, I Um, I was, you know, all these things that I look back on, and I, you know, and because I acknowledged them now I can openly sort of say like, I never want to be that person event, you know, it is that desire that keeps me, you know, I think on the straight and narrow, you know, as much as I am, you know, because, you know, I still Iie, every once in a while, you know, I still, you know, I think we all do, and not about who I am anymore, you know, I hope.

B&N: But this also comes back to the bigger point of the book, which is we have to be able to tell complete stories. And if we can’t tell complete stories, then we’re not dealing with the way we see masculinity, we’re not dealing with the way we see gender, or sexuality or any of these things that we’re just continuing to sort of plow forward thinking, well, this is the way it has to go. And ultimately, your story is really hopeful. I mean, you’re on the other side of things. I mean, you’re a teacher, and you teach non introduction to nonfiction and journalism. So I’m kind of curious, though, who’s on your syllabus?

BB: Who is on my syllabus? Oh, that’s really a good question. Like I’m trying to think of, well see, here’s the thing. It’s been a while since I’ve taught introduction to nonfiction and journalism, like, right now, I’m teaching the nonfiction workshop. I can’t remember from like two years ago, like who was on my syllabus.

B&N: Ok who’s on your syllabus now, though, like in this workshop that you’re teaching?

BB: In this workshop, my students are on my syllabus, because we all kind of like read each other’s work and critique that work. But like, you know, I’ve been doing a lot of I’ve been giving them audio narratives to listen to. And, you know, sort of nonfiction audio stories. There is I’ll just name one that I think is really, really good for nonfiction. It’s called Man Chaubam. And it’s by Sharon Mashihi. Is an Iranian Jewish woman who, she deals with the same sort of themes that I talked about. She is an Iranian Jewish woman, whose mother, she and her mother do not agree on what being a woman is supposed to be, you know, her mother wants her to be feminine and rich, and have a nice husband and, you know, have a nice house and have a nice, you know, BMW, you know, and Sharon Mashihi, he’s just not that person. So she kind of does this great audio narrative, where she kind of traps her mother on a boat, on a cruise ship, and it’s all recorded to sort of like let’s hash this out, you know, but she does a really great job of like storytelling like throughout and explaining who she is, who her mother is, who her family is. And here we go. I’m going to drop my mother on this on this boat, and we’re going to have it out. It’s so good. I super recommend it. But that’s certainly one of the things that I put on my nonfiction syllabus for students to listen to.

B&N: Okay, we know Gwendolyn Brooks and James Baldwin invited themselves into the book Who are some of your other literary influences?

BB: Well, I mean, if I if I feel like if I say Toni Morrison, I will just sound you know, like everybody, but, I mean, it’s truth. You know, she was a genius. I really do pull inspiration from absolutely everything that I read, like recipes, and, you know, Bugs Bunny cartoons that I watch, and, you know, Stephen King, and you know, there’s an old book called Flowers in the Attic. You remember that?

B&N: Oh, yes, everyone that was required reading.

BB: Omg. You know.

B&N: And we were all reading it at like 10, we had no business.

BB: This was like, weird incest book. You know, but I really do like it because I do read multiple things at once, you know, and I really just pull things, I think. So, just all of those little things, I think, inform the way that I write. And I hope that all of them being involved helps me like mix things up a little bit, so that the reader doesn’t get bored. The most important thing is the reader. You know, I mean, I tell my students, like, Look, if you’re writing about yourself, it’s great that you want to get your feelings out. You want to maybe, you know, have some catharsis. You want to, like, you know, get the earliest things out. But, if you’ve bore the reader, you’re done. You know, and it’s important to consider the fact that you’re telling a story, you’re not, you know, this is not a therapy session, you know, You’re telling a story. And hopefully that story enlightens, or maybe makes the reader think. But, you know, it can’t be such a sort of narcissistic endeavor that you’re not thinking about the fact that somebody has to pick up your book and you want them to stay with it. So that you can continue to tell your story and more stories in the future.

B&N: I think there are people too, who think of reading as a really passive act. And I don’t actually think that’s true. I think reading is one of the least passive things out, I mean, yes, in most cases, you’re sitting still what have you. But mentally, you’re not sitting still when you’re reading, you’re connecting the dots between what you’ve read before, or what you think you’re missing. I mean, it is, in some cases, it can be an act of defiance, in some cases, it can be an act of education, or entertainment, or what have you. But it is not passive. That is the last thing that reading is, and I just had this perception that it’s kind of like, you know, you’re sitting in a corner quietly, it’s like, well, actually, there’s quite a lot happening between these ears right now.

BB: Right? It’s more passive to watch TV, you know, you’re sort of sitting there watching TV, and things are happening at you. You know, I think because of the posture of reading, you’re laying down, you’re sitting in a chair, you’re, you know, on a park bench, you know, people sort of confused the position, the physical position of it with, like being passive. It’s not, I don’t know, I don’t get that at all. It’s one of the most active things you can do. I mean, it doesn’t help you like, you know, build muscle. But it’s one of them, I think it’s definitely an active thing you could do it’s exercise.

B&N: What have you learned from your students over the years?

BB: A lot, actually, I think the most biggest thing that I’ve kind of learned from my students is that there there are going to be people after me. Know, that sounds really dumb, but like, you know, you get it in your head. And you know, and you see, forget, there’s just like people coming after you, you know, that you can impart things to, you know, my students taught me about pronoun use, you know, I’m a gay man. And like, I didn’t understand, you know, why some people want to be called They. And my students explain that to me, in a way in which I got it, you know, and not just got it, but just like, under, like, really understood it. And that I think, can only happen from a younger person talking to an older person and thinking that, you know, and the older person breaking down that idea of, well, I’m older than you, so I must know more. You know, that’s a fallacy that we live by. That because we’re older, we know better, or we know more, you know, my students taught me about that. So that’s, I think one of the biggest things that I’ve learned from my students, I learned that a lot of young people struggle with anxiety, more so than I ever knew. You know, they have talked to me about their anxieties, and the ways in which they grew up. And also, I’ve learned that some things never change, you know. And it’s always rewarding. It’s always refreshing to talk to them and see what they, you know, want to do with their lives. And not just my younger students, you know, my older students as well, I have students who are older than me, and I definitely have learned a lot about writing and about life, like from them as well. So it’s great to be a teacher, I really, really enjoy it.

B&N: And writing is an act of connection. I mean, reading is an act of connection, it’s a way of stepping outside of who you are, I think you make a really important point about Punch Me Up to the Gods in that there are universal elements to your story. I’ve been to Ohio once or twice, once on business and once to visit cousins. Yeah. But there was not a moment that I wasn’t connected to your narrative. And I think this is a really important point to make. You and I grew up very differently. We have different stories now. But that act of connection, because you told the truth about your story, and you sat with the shame, and you sat with the anxiety and the fact that we can even have conversations now, about anxiety. When you and I were growing up. No one had language for any of this. I mean, you’ve even come out and said, Well, I think my dad actually had an anxiety disorder.

BB: Yeah, I think he did.

B&N: And especially for black men, like your dad, we did not have that. We didn’t have that language really for anyone but we certainly did not have it for men like your father.

BB: No, you know, I think that my father suffered from an anxiety disorder. I think he also suffered from a depressive depression disorder. You know, he would go into the bedroom and be there for days. And I remember other family members saying that he was lazy. And I just thought that that’s what he was, you know, nobody was talking about his mental health. You know, a lot of people read this book, and they sort of like they cast my father as the villain, you know, in this book, but I don’t see it that way at all. You know, he was a man who was I mean, he did horrible things, but like, he was a man who was dealing with his own, you know, mental health issues. He was afraid. He was anxious, and he was depressed. And as you say, we didn’t have language for any of that back then again, it doesn’t feel like it was that long ago. Now, we’re talking about it all the time. You know, it seems, you know, we can we can stand to talk about it more, you know, in my opinion, but, you know, he was I look back now, and you know, I have my issues with anxiety and depression. I’m like, Well, I think I come by it, honestly, because I think my father suffered from those things for most of his life, and He himself came from an extremely violent and abusive situation. And so now I just kind of understand him better. You know, people ask me if I forgive him, and I say to myself, like, some days I do, you know, I think it’s perfectly possible to forgive people some days, and then not forgive them the next day, you know, particularly if they’re no longer with us, you know, but he was dealing definitely with his own stuff. And I get that now. I didn’t get it, then.

B&N: Yeah. And I think aiming for canonization if you’re just an average person, like most of us, it’s not that interesting. Nothing, not. Absolutely. I mean, and again, I know I mentioned this earlier in this conversation, but this idea that we need to be able to talk about all of the facets of messy lives, and that respectability politics is not good for anyone. And pretending that this stuff doesn’t happen or that we don’t make bad decisions, or that, you know, we don’t learn to lie. I mean, all of this stuff, it’s really important the way you pull it together, and give it a context and give it life. I mean, you’re talking, and you’re sort of interspersing these vignettes about a little boy traveling with his dad on the bus. He’s what a toddler. I mean, he seems very tiny.

BB: I don’t know what age children are. Like, he’s a tot. He’s, he’s definitely not like making sentences yet. You know, like, he’s very, he’s a very small boy, who has just learned to walk. So I don’t know how old that is. Maybe one, you know, very young. Yeah, very small boy.

B&N: And here’s the thing you’re writing this, what, 20-30 years after you were that tiny boy? 40 years? I mean, a lot. Right?

BB: Many, many years after.

B&N: But I only raise it because again, like we’re seeing these cycles. Yeah, we’re seeing these cycles, and we’re repeating ourselves, and we’re still having these sort of limiting conversations, again, about masculinity and what it means and gender and sexuality and all of these things, where it’s, we keep wanting in a way to put ourselves in a box as a culture and a society. And I don’t think that’s how this works. But what’s it like for you, as the writer to see all of this on the page?

BB: To my own work? Or talking about it in general?

B&N: Your own work, your own story.

BB: I mean, every once in a while, I’ll pick up my own book, and try to read it. And I just immediately put it down, it’s still hard for me to read in places, you know, it feels like, you know, I think I have sort of unconsciously, like, blocked it a little bit, like, just just put it out there and let it be its own thing. You know, it’s like I, you know, gave birth and gave it up. There were places, you know, I can tell you that before publication, I got really, really, really nervous. And there were nights, but I sat up in bed, and I was like, I really want to call this off. I shouldn’t have done this, you know, to have all that stuff out there. But, you know, to see what has happened in the aftermath that people are reading it and maybe my story is resonating with people. It’s been so great. Like I think yesterday or a couple days ago, I had a did a podcast with two heterosexual Black men who completely understood what I was talking about. Completely identified. My own brother, as a matter of fact, reached out to me after the book and said he was also dealing with the same things like when he was growing up. So it’s gratifying for me to see that men of all kinds, you know, all backgrounds, you know, are having this discussion and I think the discussion is, is just beginning. You know, I think that we’re just at the very, very, very beginning of this discussion. You know, right now, I, you know, I watched Rothaniel the other night with Jerrod Carmichael. And he’s starting this discussion. And then I see little NAS X, you know, out there out and proud. Like, he’s like, now talking about this discussion. So, you know, it is something that’s being brought up now, it’s no longer something that’s hidden, people know, it’s there. And, you know, the question becomes, like, how are we going to deal with it? How are we going to start, you know, to educate our little boys about what it means to be, you know, a boy in this world or what it means to be a girl in this world. And I hope that those discussions continued along the right, the right path.

B&N: So what’s next for you?

BB: Oh, boy, I’m writing again. Um, I turned in a couple of chapters to my agent a few days ago, and she was like, Okay, keep going, you know, so there’s that. I am, I have a film agent now. Um, so I have been talking to movie people, which has been very exciting. And, you know, just teaching like, which, you know, I love to do. As a writer, you gotta, you know, gotta keep a check coming in, you never know. But fortunately, I really enjoy teaching. So, you know, if I got to work a steady job, you know, I would I love that. The fact that that’s it, you know, because I get to write, and I get to talk about writing all the time. And I get to read other people’s writing all the time. And it’s just wonderful.

B&N: And it brings me back to Punch Me Up to the Gods being a very hopeful story.

BB: I think it is, you know, and I do think that that’s the impression that people get, you know, there are people who sort of focus on the negative parts, I’ve talked to them. And, and I’m like, but no, you know, I get it, you know, I think it’s more of a No, nobody’s life is all, you know, flowers and sex, and money. You know, God, I wish it was. But, you know, but in the end, I really hope that people get the message of the book, and maybe it changes their view on certain things, or causes them to ask questions about certain things, or maybe look at their own life, or maybe somebody they love in a different way. So yeah.

B&N: You know, I just really want to be clear that Punch Me Up to the Gods does, and on a really hopeful note. But I think there’s a larger conversation that we still need to have. And this goes back to not just what you were saying about gender a second ago, but also mental health in black and brown communities or not, we need to keep having these conversations.

BB: Absolutely. You know, I think Black and brown communities, like I think that mental health or seeking mental health treatment is still seen as some sort of like weakness, or that there’s something wrong with you toughen up, you know, this is the world it’s horrible place a you got to be tough to tough enough to do it. And if you are struggling with mental health issues, that means that you are weak, or somehow deficient. You know. And I think that in Black and brown communities, mental health is a serious issue. You know, it goes hand in hand with being a Black or brown person and just living in this country, which I think many of us can agree has its problems with race. So you can’t live in a in a, you know, a society that is that is set up to debase you, and not have, you know, mental health problems. So, you know, I just want to encourage, you know, Black and brown communities go and seek help for your anxiety, your depression, your, you know, it’s not you being weak, you know, there are things that make you that are making you feel this way, and I do want to impress upon people that if they know somebody who is struggling to not shame them about it, but to maybe get them to try to help get them the help that they need.

B&N: And I think a lot of folks are going to be helped by Punch Me Up to the Gods. There’s a lot of very, very honest, open, beautiful prose that is occasionally also very funny. And having those moments to breathe and process what you’ve just read, I think is really important. So I’m really looking forward to lots of folks discovering Punch Me Up to the Gods this summer. Let’s take it to the beach. Seriously, take this book to the beach.

BB: Take me to the beach, take me to the beach.

B&N: Okay there’s Brian Broome, thank you so much for joining us. Punch Me Up to the Gods is out in paperback now.

BB: Thank you, Miwa