Poured Over: Katie Runde on The Shore
“I missed it so much. And definitely didn’t get it or appreciate the specialness of it, or this particular beauty of it…until you have to show up at a party full of strangers. And answer that, where are you from question so many times. I’m not sure I would have written this book, if I didn’t have to do that over and over and over again, in so many different places.” That’s Katie Runde, riffing on the Jersey Shore; it’s more than just the setting for her debut novel, The Shore, it’s a character in its own right. Katie joins us on the show to talk about writing a coming-of-age novel for an entire family, homesickness, grief, sisterhood, jump-starting her own writing career with help from Jami Attenberg’s #1000wordsofsummer + a Catapult class + a Tin House workshop, her literary inspirations for this book and much more with Poured Over’s host, Miwa Messer. And we end the episode with TBR Topoff book recommendations from Marc and Becky.
Featured Books:
The Shore by Katie Runde
Ask Again, Yes by Mary Beth Keane
Notes on Your Sudden Disappearance by Alison Espach
We Are Not Ourselves by Matthew Thomas
Goodbye, Vitamin by Rachel Khong
Wild by Cheryl Strayed
Poured Over is produced and hosted by Miwa Messer and mixed by Harry Liang. New episodes land Tuesdays and Thursdays (with occasional Saturdays) here and on your favorite podcast app.
(And starting today, we’re posting video editions of each Poured Over episode to the Barnes & Noble YouTube channel…)
Full transcript for this episode of Poured Over:
B&N: I’m Miwa Messer, I’m the producer and host of Poured Over and I’m so excited for you guys to meet Katie Runde, her debut novel is called The Shore and I’m gonna let Katie introduce herself.
Katie Runde: Hi, it’s so nice to be here. I love the podcast, and it’s in my regular rotation. And, I live now in Iowa City, but grew up at the Jersey Shore where the book is set. And professional background is teaching. I taught high school and have kind of lived all over before we ended up here. And as far as the book goes, it started out as my MFA thesis, and then life happened in between and it went in my harddrive and two different laptops. And then, after I had two kids, I finally returned to it and and rethought it. And then, long story short that brought us here.
B&N: Excellent. We’re so happy to be here. Ask Again. Yes, by Mary Beth Keane, if you’ve read this, you need to read The Shore. Notes on Your Sudden Disappearance by Alison Espach, if you’ve read that, you need to read The Shore. This is a very tightly written family story that takes place over the summer. On the Jersey Shore, we’ve got the Dunne family, there’s Brian and his wife, Margot, and their daughters, Liz and Evy, they’re the heart of this book. And there’s some other folks who come in and out of their orbits, and we may or may not get to them, because this really is a book you want to sit with. It’s one of those beach reads that’s actually a little more than a beach read. And it’s one of those domestic dramas that move. So it’s kind of the perfect, perfect moment for this book to come out. But how did we meet the done family? How did how did this family show up for you?
KR: It started out very early iterations of this book, the family, the family was much more in the background. And it was a focus on one 17-year-old character, Liz, who is who is still one of the sisters. And then very slowly, the rest of the family started to emerge a little bit more. And I got to wonder more and more about what they were doing when I wasn’t seeing them. And, so I just had to write their stories as well, I actually, I queried a very early version of this book that was just a 17-year-old narrator. And it just wasn’t meant to be that it was it was really meant to be the story of this whole this whole family. And then also got to know them better through kind of like their lives before we see them in the summer. I got really curious about what their lives were like before, so the mom and dad and how they met, and how they broke up and what struggles they went through before we meet them this summer. And how the business they have this tourist business and the Jersey Shore this, you know, vacation rental business. So I got really curious about how they started that business. And so and then it slowly became the story of the whole family.
B&N: We have to talk about the Jersey Shore for a second because it is its own character. I mean place. We’re gonna come back to place. There are a lot of different ways place shows up in this book. But let’s talk about the Jersey Shore for folks who don’t know what the Jersey Shore is because they’re out there.
KR: So I grew up there. I was my it’s very interesting, because my family actually had my dad was a plumber, my mom was a teacher. But in the 80s they actually had two houses. They had a summer house and a house in North Jersey. And then my dad kind of tried. He tried to have like, regular jobs and like and you know, did this plumbing day job in the winter, but just was drawn to the businesses and to living there. So we ended up moving there full time when I was like three. And so and I grew up working in my family’s boardwalk businesses, we had a wheel game, we had a snack bar called Marty’s dog house. We had an umbrella stand, which that’s one of the businesses in the book and I was allowed to work there on my days off the snack bar. But yeah, so I grew up there and so some people know it from the reality show The Jersey Shore reality show, some people don’t it’s enough years ago now, or if you’re not from the immediate area, and it’s a wild place. It’s like there’s nowhere like it, you know, like I just couldn’t not write about this place because there were not 100 million books out there. You know, and I read so many beach books that are lovely, that are beautiful, that are their own stories, and I couldn’t believe that there weren’t already 100 bucks that in this place. You know, it’s like, it really is it really is a crazy place. Like if you’re in the Seaside Heights boardwalk around 10 o’clock on a summer night, I’ve never been anywhere in the world like It’s wild. There’s really nothing like it. But then also there’s this really quiet town next door which is like actually where I lived like two blocks away from this really wild town and on the Jersey Shore. It just changes that fast so these like one mile towns up the coast and they change In a minute, and they’re all have their own personalities. So I always say that it really is like that. But that is one side of it. So I really wanted to show this other side of like the people that make it run and the people who are there in this beautiful quiet offseason. And this, there’s a real beauty to it that I think, even whether you know it or not, or you know it a little bit, you know, you might not know in this way.
B&N: And it also has its own rhythms. This community is a real community. I mean, Brian is sick. He has a brain tumor, his personality has changed dramatically. His ability to run his business with his wife Margot is not a he just can’t he just cannot participate. Yeah, anything really anymore. And the community really steps in to help Margot but this is this is Margot’s story. And Liz’s story. And Evy’s story. It’s a coming of age for everyone, in a way as Brian regresses.
KR: Yeah, I think that’s really I think that’s really true. And yes, you have Brian who’s doing the sort of reverse coming of age, right, where like, everything that he’s built, and his whole personality is moving backwards, and he’s really an unrecognizable person. And then you have the girls who are teenagers and their stories were one of my favorite parts to write this, like, if you have ever been a teenager, or you know a teenager who’s going through something hard, their teenage lives just insist on doubling down on becoming, they know like, I think there’s these for these two girls, there’s this like, insistence on going out and trading off with each other and finding that summer love and doing what they’re going to do. And then for Margot, she’s in her 40s. And I think I’m closer to her age now. And I really understand that second coming of age, whether something hard is happening to you or not. But the the more intense version of it when life as you know it is is changing so drastically. And you’re under so much stress. You really there’s a reinvention that’s, I think required no matter what, and for her it’s like, you know, an extra big version of that.
B&N: And motherhood is only one part of Margot’s identity. And you know, there is sort of this idea in our society that motherhood is the thing that defines you. Yeah, if you are a woman in this country, apparently this is the thing that everyone is supposed to aspire to. This is the thing. And Margot loves being a mom, she loves her children, she loves her husband, she also loves her job and her life and everything else. And all of that is about to change. And she is in the process of learning how to grieve. And so she makes a couple of decisions that we’re not going to totally get in here. But right one of them is she’s thinking of leaving. Yeah, she’s thinking of leaving the community and leaving it behind, which I thought was a really interesting decision on your part, as the writer because again, we have this idea where motherhood is the thing, and all of this, and Margot is like, No, I’m still a person.
KR: Yes. And I could talk about the ways that motherhood, like, the expectations of it and the limitations, and I could talk about that forever, especially in these times in the last episode last year. I love how whenever I think it’s Lauren Groff, whenever she’s interviewed, and they asked her if she gets asked, like, how do you find the time she’s like, I will answer that and when you ask the men, but back to Margot, she is so tied to her life in Seaside, right? Like she she hitched her wagon to Brian very young, which is another thing I actually would read 100 books about, I don’t feel like I read 100 books about this love that’s really real, and you’re really ready for it. And you do hit your wagons together early. And yes, she and Brian did that. And she cannot fathom a potential life in this town and this business with him not in it. She doesn’t want she wants to peace out. She wants to just like, step side step that and in her head, she thinks she can right like, no matter that when the truth is, doesn’t matter where you live, you can move to Disneyland. There’s no way around it right. But when things get really intense, I really understand why she feels that way and is tempted to make those plans and the plans themselves. It’s really interesting because I think there’s like a positive spin on this. I’ve read an article about like planning a vacation, you know, your brain lights up in the same way as when you’re on the vacation. Right? So I think she’s able to like escape, in a way like, as she’s thinking of potentially what her life might be like later, you know, and it’s like a temporary it’s a temporary escape for her whether or not she ends up following through with it right. We all do. I mean, even not under crisis. I look at Zillow all the time. You imagine your life in those houses and those places.
B&N: And grief is hard. I mean, so much of literature obviously is driven by stories of loss and longing and heartbreak. And, you know, because it’s nice to sort of dip into it in a book and then walk back into your life. But grief has its own cadence, it doesn’t really care what you’re planning or what you’re thinking and the way each of these women respond. And even Brian, to a certain extent, the book opens with him writing posted some words that he can remember. Yeah, and it’s a really powerful image, but also the girls. They uncover a secret, their mom’s secret plan to sort of move. And of course, they’re not having it, but they uncover it because everyone’s online. In this, what do we call it? It’s not necessarily a self help group. I guess it is a self help group.
KR: It’s like a forum. It sounds old fashioned. But I think that it’s like a Reddit type group. Even though it’s an old fashioned as far as internet goes term, I think that’s what it still is, you know, it’s where you have something in common, you make your username, it’s one of the most old fashioned web 1.0 things there is, but people still use them.
B&N: And here’s Margot talking through her life with astensible strangers. And Evy, her youngest, discovers what mom is up to, and creates her own profile and starts talking to her mother, as more of a peer obviously, than as her kid.
KR: Quote unquote, peer.
B&N: And it’s wild watching this family connect in this way. But when did you know that was going to have to be a piece of it? Because I mean, how else do you reveal some of the … tech has to come in at some point, right?
KR: Oh, yeah, yes, I think so much that you just said is so interesting. As far as like, well, first of all, think of the times, right? And honestly, as this has come up in conversation about this book, everyone has done this at some point, right? Everyone has found one of these forums, and the times you find them or when it’s something embarrassing, or it’s something so specific that no one in your life is going through it right? Or it’s something where like, Google has failed you, right? So I my personal experience is one of these is like, when it took me longer to get pregnant than I thought it was going to, and you come to the end of your answers, and you just want to talk to people who that’s happening to them. You know, as far as when it happens, right? It happens when you’re not getting it in your life. And you’re not finding any other way. Right? Like you you find this new identity online, and you find this community and Margot does. And Evy kind of stumbled on it. But then, I think they both stay there because it’s giving them something they’re not getting from each other. You know, I think it is a universal experience to and a family to be surprised and thrown off by the ways that your other family members experience and go through their grief. Like it really is going to do what it’s going to do on its own timeline at for a teenager, it might look like drinking way too much at a party, it might look like I’m everything is okay, it might look like I’m getting a second job and I’m going to go work, I’m going to like keep this routine going. And I’m gonna work. And for this family, one way manifests is like, there’s things that are just too hard to talk to each other about in person. And that hurts these teenage girls, right? There’s something in them that’s like, this isn’t right. And we should be and that’s when, and that’s when Evy goes and ends up finding and pursuing this relationship with her mom and in this online world.
B&N: And those aren’t the only funny moments in this book. I don’t want people to think Oh, no, this is the heaviest lifting in the world.
KR: That’s actually a teenage also has this particular teenage girl and her like interpretation of what a 40 something year old mom, like how she would talk and what she’s into is a moment where like, that was one of my favorite parts to write because like, like, it’s so funny. When I taught high school kids like they I think I was in my early 20s. They were like, What are you 50? I told one kid actually was teaching in Iowa. And my husband had matched for residency in New York City from med school or residency. And so I told the kids that and they and this kid raised his hand in the back and he’s like, are you still gonna work here? Anyway, like, teenagers that anyway, the way that teenagers see grownups, you know, what they think about how they would communicate is a real opportunity for funny interactions.
B&N: Both Liz and Evy are very sweet girls. They’re just going through it and no one really has a roadmap for how to grieve. I mean, we tell ourselves that we do or we, you know, we read a lot of books and no one genuinely has, yes roadmap and also their dad is is not who they remember. And you give these glimpses of who he was before he got sick. And it’s just it’s clear that this is the defining event of this family’s existence. But I have to give you a ton of credit because Brian and Margot, mom and dad, they have their own personalities, like they get to be people in this book. And it’s not just, you know, here’s sick dad. And here’s mom doing what you get. They are actually people. And it’s really fun to sort of see even though the circumstances are terrible. It’s still fun to see their evolution. I mean, Brian and the pants thing. It’s a terrible moment, but at the same time, what are you going to do but laugh, there are moments where, if you’re really going through it, all you can do is laugh because it’s just not anything that anyone has ever prepared you for.
KR: No, there is I call it like a dark humor. i It’s like it is this like improv show it is this sort of like, well, we’re doing this now you find yourself in these situations where you’re like, Okay, I guess this is happening, I guess we’re doing this now. And it is a really particular challenge, when you’re when you have a character, any type of character actually think a glioblastoma, brain tumor is very specific. And it can happen when you’re younger, and it changes your personality and not necessarily your memory, the way that a more of like a dementia kind of story would. And there’s a particular challenge in showing a full person when you only have them in this brief period when they’re really not themselves. And for me, in this particular project, I hope that I sort of did less is more right that you don’t need a 200 page, super long flashback chapter, you know, I think you can get a big sense of his life and his life with Margot, in these very brief, almost micro fiction kind of pieces that allude to more. And you know, actually, one of the things you mentioned too, is the loss before loss, you know, this, this really very specific experience that, you know, over the years, like I found myself drawn to stories of people with dementia, because they’re strike close in a lot of ways like, like Goodbye, Vitamin by Rachel Khong. And We Are Not Ourselves by Matthew Thomas were books that I felt just cracked open a world and they really did show full lives of these characters who in real time are not themselves, you know, I thought they did such a beautiful job of doing that. Um, but there’s something really specific about like, loss before loss, you have to like, it’s, it’s almost like you’re losing every day, or it’s almost like, you know, like, you lost it with the diagnosis, and then you use it every single day. And then you turn something off to get through the day, and then you find somehow this humor. And then, there’s what’s ahead, right, there’s so many layers to it, you know.
B&N: Well, and also the personality changes that go with so much of this. I mean, when you have an idea, memory is really powerful, right? I mean, it’s, it drives a million different kinds of narratives. And the idea that everything you know isn’t true anymore.
KR: Right? Yeah. And the sort of like, I have not found a better word than I know, you said I could curse but I want like my, like a mind eff of like, you look like this person I know. But you are not. Right. Like that’s just, what’s the word for that?
B&N: And part of this book does come from your own history. Your dad had the same kind of tumor that did yeah, Brian has that this is not autofiction. Like, let’s be clear, yes, the setting is what it is, and the tumor is what it is. But this is something that you conjured up to talk about the emotional repercussions and ramifications of a story like this. So can we just talk about taking that step back? Your dad was sick a number of years ago, so it’s been a while.
KR: Yeah, gosh, almost. Like got sick about 20 years ago? Probably about 17. Yeah, about 17. So yeah, quite a long time. And it you know, it’s interesting. No, I would definitely not autofiction. But I but I would like the scenes with Brian where he is not himself and he is causing chaos and the family is reacting to it. Um, each one is like, I feel like I could have written them forever. None of them is exactly what happened in my family, but I felt like I could have thought of them forever. And you know, one thing from that, too, is I really wanted to write about this age of loss, right? Somewhere between 16 and very early 20s. I also think is so specific You know, like, you’ve grown up, but not but not quite, not quite. And it’s different from say, Cheryl Strayed’s Wild, you know, like that kind of loss that is eviscerating and like, and gutting and life changing. And it’s different in your late 20s than when your a late teenager Right? Like just I think there’s something so particular about that you sort of have to like, I call it like, you certainly become a ghostwriter for like, what you’re like what your family would have done. It’s a really quick role reversal. Like you’re like all of a sudden, and then you’re making a lot of big plans for yourself, right? It’s a really big time in someone’s life. And you’re like, Okay, we’re doing this now. So I really wanted to write that stage and that age character. And but you know, it’s interesting, like changing from, you know, from what your own experience was to to the book. My own sister’s a lot younger. And so I think I made these girls really close in age, so that they’re going through more similar life stage.
B&N: Yeah, they’re so sure of who they are and what they want and what’s right and what’s not. And they know what’s best. It’s that surety of a teen and honestly, we all know, they know nothing, and it’s adorable. But yeah, they really.
KR: The dramatic irony of reading about a teenager when you’re a grown up, right.
B&N: Okay, so on top of it, you no longer live anywhere near the Jersey Shore, I don’t think you could get any more landlocked than you are in Iowa City.
KR: I moved for love.
B&N: That’s totally fair, totally fair, totally legit. But I do want to talk about what happens to your sense of place that when you remove yourself from the actual place. Now, granted, you have not lived at the shore at a very long time, but you can get to the shore easily enough from your city. So it’s not just the physical change. It’s the mental and emotional change that goes with it. So can we just talk about that for a second? Because also your community? You had to rebuild a community for yourself?
KR: Yeah, I am sure that I will, like people from this area, they’re very opinionated. So, I am 100% sure, I will get like, some sort of little thing that like, you know, because maybe I’m not there like, the whole month of January or something. Um, my mom still lives in Seaside and we go and stay with her, we go and stay with her for as long as we can, every summer and I bring my kids out, I am there for like, a good chunk of time. And, you know, and try to visit as often as I can. And I have my sister lives nearby as well. She lives in New Jersey. So I have that tie. And then, but I also think that I would not have written this if I had lived geographically closer, right? So we’re in Iowa City now. And then we’ve lived in California, we lived in New York City over the years. And I think that that sense of homesickness is what drew me back to this project throughout all of life, there’s like, I couldn’t leave it alone, you know, like I couldn’t, I missed it so much. And definitely didn’t get it or appreciate the specialness of it, or this particular beauty of it, until you have to show up at a party full of strangers. And answer that, like where are you from question so many times. I’m not sure I would have written this book, if I didn’t have to do that over and over and over again, in so many different places. You know, I always feel like I over answered it, right? You’re like, no, no, this guy just wants to know, like, Where does your mail go? And I found myself giving this long answer. And really wanting this place to be known by this person I just met at a party who may or may not be interested. Sounds like, well, I’ll show him 80,000 words about it.
B&N: But also, if you come from a place that has such a personality, yeah, the way Seaside and let’s shout out Seaside because it is a very specific kind of plays on the shore.
KR: Yes, yeah.
B&N: But also, you in this book, I mean, you’re talking about class you’re talking about… Well, not just class, but I mean, Brian has great medical care.
KR: Yeah, yes.
B&N: Everyone here is gonna be fine. And I mean, unfortunately, there is death and dying, but everyone’s gonna be okay. No one’s in danger of losing everything.
KR: Absolutely. This family is in a privileged spot, right. As far as like, as far as money and medicine and access right. When you live in Jersey, you have access to two of the biggest cities and best medical care in the world. Right. And yeah, so absolutely. They’re super privileged. There’s a part in the book where Liz’s boyfriend, starts to figure some things out about her. And she’s like, Oh, this is one of our family’s rental properties. And it’s beautiful rent. He’s like, so are you guys rich? And, and she, and she thinks about it. And she’s like, well, what she’s gleaned from her family is this quote unquote, like relationship with money. It’s complicated, right? Like, and that is the boardwalk life. It’s complicated, right? In the 80s, my town got like, a syringe tide. And like, no one came. And like, everybody doubled down on their winter jobs. My dad did more plumbing that winter, right, and literally didn’t turn the heat on in the downstairs of our house that winter, right. And then, there are years in the 90s, where you cannot count the money fast enough. Like the cash coming home is like you have to count it the rest of the night, you know, but then you get hit by a hurricane, and everything’s wiped out again, and anything you had is gone. And you have to rebuild it off. So I think the answer to that, money in a boardwalk town is complicated. And it’s not a regular day job. And it is really up and down. And I hope I tried to give the way everybody understands it, you know, the summer visitor boyfriend, the kids who are like, well, how does this affect us in a day to day? We don’t go to the country club or have like a fancy car. And we’re like working our asses off. And Margot, and what she’s trying to manage. So that’s that. I mean, that is the long and short answer to like money in Seaside.
B&N: But it matters because it is sort of how the community defines itself. And it’s how, in some ways the community steps up for Brian as well. So I just didn’t want to leave it out of the conversation. It is certainly you know, a piece of this family and their experience of their community. But I want to talk about a different kind of community for a second because you have an MFA, but you shout out a couple of different programs and people that I would really like to talk to you about because I think this is kind of cool. So you did a low res MFA at Woodrow Wilson. And we’re going to come back to that in a second. But you specifically shout out Jamie Attenberg’s 1000 Words of Summer and Claire Vaye Watkins at a Tin House summer workshop, and Rufi Thorpe’s, the novel chapter one class through Catapult and these are all great people and all great organizations. So I really just want to go through the list and say, What did you learn from these women that you didn’t learn from your MFA program? And then we’re going to come back to MFAs in a second. But I think it’s really important to shout out different kinds of resources for folks who were hoping to write or in the process of write or wherever you are in that experience for yourselves.
KR: Oh, absolutely. Yes. So I loved my MFA would shout it out all day, and happy to come back to that and learn so much from it. But so these other three women in these other three classes, programs, you know, one by one found me and found my project, like right where I was at, you know, and I would say, in their own ways, were very accessible. And we’re in nudge the project forward, right, so I guess so in chronological order. Rufi Thorpe’s Catapult class was fall of 2016, online, and it was a class of all women online. And, it was it was like straddled the 2016 election. So really stressful time, just in history. And another book came out of that Megan Angelo wrote a book called Followers that also came out in that same class. And what was great about Rufi is how she just was like, unapologetically, like, go go go with this, right? Like, she was very different from like an MFA workshop, right? Like, I feel like once you’ve done that more formal workshop, you can be more generative, and the class had such energy and such such brilliant women in it. You know, I think it was a little bit magic, too, the combination of women who showed up for this class at that time that I left that class with, like, I brought this this like thesis chapter and that was actually where like, it was like, this needs something, it needs something, it needs something. And we’re I was finally brave enough to say brain tumor, this hard thing like that wasn’t part of the previous draft. And after that, it was off to the races. It was like, you know, please babies nap one more minute so I can finish, and I owe everything to Rufi’s energy in that class. It was like very, you get to do one phone call in that class and like, you know, each of these women in their own way were such an inspiration. But she did not apologize for how hard it was going to be to do with kids. She’s like it is and you do it anyway. So then, in order Jamie Attenberg’s #1000wordsofsummer, which, if you haven’t heard of it, it’s a Twitter hashtag. It’s 1000s and 1000s of people participate in this every summer. And it is what it sounds like, I believe it’s about a couple of weeks. And everybody writes 1000 words. That’s it, you get it, you get this incredible free newsletter from her with advice from her writer pals, that feels like it is just for you. And it feels like it is speaking exactly to your project, she has this tone that is also so encouraging, but also very real about the ups and downs in the emotional labor of writing. And so, feeling like you were reporting back, I remember going to the Coralville Library, finding my spot, and getting my 1000 words down, and that momentum, just like adds up to something. And it’s so important. And she is just so generous. I think like, it’s such a lesson in like, what you can do with your success. Like, I think she’s just been so generous with her own success and building this community. She does not have to do this. And it’s, it’s a lot of work for her. And I’m so grateful that she did it. And then the last piece was Claire Vaye Watkins was my workshop leader at the Tin House workshop. And what I would shout out there’s like, I almost didn’t go to that. And I was far away, I had little kids, and that was the most expensive of pay for it. And it changed my life. I thought these chapters were like my ticket into that workshop. And then I was gonna go home and, you know, ditch it. And I remember her talking about, like, just calming everyone down and talking about she called it getting the lay of the land. Right, like, so talking to new novelists about taking the time to like, it’s almost like that Ocean’s 11, you know, where you see everybody at the beginning, right? Then they’re all doing their thing. Like giving a new novelist the permission, she’s like, I trust you. I’m going where you’re going, you can take another minute and give us the lay of the land. And she is also just so brilliant. And one thing about that is like when I wasn’t sure where whether to go, I reached out to a writer named Kate Hope Day, she wrote a book called if then I only knew her from Twitter. And I all I knew what she was mom and she had a book and she went to Tin House. And I was like, I don’t think I’m gonna go to this should I go to this. And she said go. I encourage any writer who is in that position to do the same thing because people are very generous and will be very honest with you. Another book came out of that, too. The Atmospherians by Alex McElroy also came from that workshop. So just have to shout out all the great work that came from all these and I can’t even name all the 1000 words of summer books that are out in the world. Right? Oh, so I’m so grateful to all those women.
B&N: So you did a low res MFA at Warren Wilson. Can we talk about what that experience is? Because I think not everyone knows that low res MFAs exist or what they mean? Or how they can sort them into their own lives?
KR: Oh, absolutely. I also didn’t know that it existed. I took a class at the Iowa City has it something called the summer writing Festival. It’s like any one welcome type of workshop. And I heard from someone there that they existed. At the time, where as I mentioned earlier, right, my husband went to med school here. And then you do something called a match when you’re in med school and doing residency, which a lot of people don’t know how that works. It’s like, you make a list. And then the residency programs make a list and then one day it spits out where you’re gonna go and live, you find out this one day in March, like where you’re going to live in two months. So I was itching, itching, I’ve been teaching for four years, and I was just itching to go to grad school, but I didn’t know for sure what city I was gonna live in. And I really didn’t want to wait, I really didn’t want to put it off and get a job for a year and then go. And so this was the perfect thing because I didn’t know where I was gonna live, but it didn’t matter. So, and I would also shout out that one really cool thing about it is that the kinds of students it attracts our students from all walks of life and students who also can’t leave their lives, right? They have really cool full-time jobs that they keep, and they have kids or they’re older and they’re retired and brilliant and are now starting to be writers and it’s amazing for that, you know, I mean I think a full residency MFA program is also amazing in its own way and that sequestered version of writing, some incredible work comes out of that too, but I can’t shout out enough like that environment, you know, and I’d also shout out the, I think that, for better or worse, my program was very removed from publishing, you know, and now, I would say that I love that. There’s other times when I was like impatient earlier, I’m like, why are we not having agent Y? But I actually think for for your project, like, I think it’s very wise. I think it was exactly what I needed and honest, it’s probably what most projects need, as they’re incubating, you know, like, you can figure that part out. And though the supervisors that I had throughout that time, or have been so generous, when you’re ready for that, there’s somebody still there you can reach back out to, and they will take you through it. So but at the time, I personally think that’s what was better for me. So that model is pretty specific to low residency programs, and I really recommend it.
B&N: And really, it just sounds like you have to do the work, no matter what program you chose, or where you went. Or if you stayed home, you just have to write and then the rest of it kind of makes sense.
KR: There’s a give and take, though, like I’m gonna be 40. And it’s there’s been so many ups and downs, and you have these stops and starts in these moments that really encourage you right? Like pieces of this book, have been stories and that gives you this little jumpstart, and this little like, I’m so grateful to all this short story editors, journal editors over the years to like, there’s such beautiful work and there’s such a community on Twitter. Lit mag Twitter is I personally think the best corner of Twitter. There’s a lot of less great corners of Twitter, but Lit Mag Twitter is so generous, it’s, um, you really can find a community there. If you’re a person who’s not going to do an MFA but are in search of a community, I do recommend it, et Cie can be a little intimidating, but you really can find your people there. You really truly can.
B&N: You know, you’ve talked about a lot of the books that have influenced you, as you were working on this. And we have a pretty good idea of who you are as a reader. But let me ask why do you write?
KR: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think it was Jennifer Egan came through Iowa City a couple of years ago, and she quoted another writer who I don’t remember who she was quoting. But it’s kind of funny it was, and it was like, she got asked the same question. And I agree with her and that it’s like, Is your life better? Like, do you feel more like yourself when you are writing, like, no matter what it is? And if you can do anything else, you should. You should have any other hobby, if you can. But, I have a friend who’s an OBGYN, and she has this very intense day job, and the most beautiful garden in our entire town. And I hate gardening. I really, like really need it. And so So I think you should do it. If you notice a pattern. And you feel more like yourself, when you’re going back to your family or your day job. And something feels better whether you wrote nonsense, or revised or wrote something in your notes app, then then you should and that’s why I do.
B&N: Knowing all of that. Did anything surprise you? While you were writing the shore? I mean, it seems like you knew where this book was going and the kind of ground you wanted to cover. But someone or something had to have surprised you while you were writing?
KR: Oh, that is such a great question. And I think my answer to that is, the places where it like feels like it wrote itself surprised me. And I am always fascinated, because it’s not if you if you read a book totally out of context, and then you talk to the author, it’s almost never what you would guess. And so for me, it was the alternate forums, right? That felt like they wrote themselves and felt like that magical, whatever woo woo thing you want to call it like, you know, like, use energy, so that’s like emails between characters that’s like, these forum posts where like, a character within a character is taking on this new identity, and some of the text exchanges that felt like so I would say those surprise me in where it felt like they came from but if you’re in this position, you’re right of yourself, I would say like they came from the work you did to get to know the people before and those surprised me and they have stayed consistent throughout so many drafts, right, like trimmed but, but like the core of them has stayed very similar to their original iterations. And what I remember where I was, I was writing them, you know, like, it was such a surprise. Those were like naptime. Those like naptime frenzy, you know? Like one more like she’s got one more thing to say here, you know, so those for sure surprised me and I wish, wouldn’t it be great if you could conjure it and make that happen? But you can’t, you just have to show up.
B&N: Do you miss the Dunnes?
KR: Oh, that’s a good question. I don’t because I don’t feel like I left them. I think about them all the time. And, right now I’m talking about them more, too, but I think even when the time passes, and I’m talking about them more often, no, I think about them all the time, I think about the music they listen to. And when I was back in Seaside last summer, it felt like Liz was going for a run with me on the boardwalk. And so I don’t because I don’t feel like I left them.
B&N: So great. That’s really, really wonderful. So what’s next for you?
KR: Yeah, next writing wise, I’m in the very like generative, messing around trying things and actually very looking forward to #1000wordsofsummer. It’s coming up again. And I’m definitely joining again this year and it’s a really fun place to be you know, I think like some writers are freaked out by it or intimidated by it and I am really I’m really enjoying it. You should see my file names. You know, we’ve got like, F around and find out. We’ve got, you know, all kinds of that’s where you find the expletives, in those file names. That’s what we’re doing now.
B&N: Okay, that sounds like a really excellent plan. Katie Runde, thank you so much for joining us on Poured Over. The Shore is out now.
KR: Thank you.