Poured Over: Brinda Charry on The East Indian

Jenna Seery

“I have to transport myself, and only then I can transport my reader.”

Our May Discover Pick, Brinda Charry’s, The East Indian, transports readers to Colonial Virginia to follow the life and adventures of a young Indian boy coming of age in the New World. Charry joins us to talk about her intensive research process, the effects of colonialism on the story, her love of world literature and more with Poured Over host, Miwa Messer. We end this episode with TBR Topoff book recommendations from Marc and Madyson.

This episode of Poured Over was hosted by Executive Producer Miwa Messer and mixed by Harry Liang.     

New episodes land Tuesdays and Thursdays (with occasional Saturdays) here and on your favorite podcast app.  

Featured Books (Episode):
The East Indian by Brinda Charry
A Midsummer Night’s Dream by William Shakespeare

Featured Books (TBR Topoff):
David Copperfield by Charles Dickens
She Who Became the Sun by Shelley Parker-Chan

Full Episode Transcript:

Miwa Messer
I’m Miwa Messer, I’m the producer and host of Poured Over and Brinda Charry’s novel The East Indian is so satisfying. It’s one of these historical novels that takes you from the coast of India to London, to the Americas in 1635. So Brinda is also a Shakespeare scholar and this is where I get to say it all starts with Shakespeare. Always. Brinda, thank you so much for joining us on Poured Over.

Brinda Charry
Thank you. Thank you. It’s pleasure to be here.

MM
So how does the Shakespeare scholar end up writing about a South Asian Indian man in America in 1635?

BC
Well, I mean, I just came across this person, the very fact he existed, in a way I think the novel started in a place of sort of wonder, and when I say wonder, sort of mix of shock and curiosity, and awe that he even made this journey. I mean, what a long journey in 1635, and even traveling across the Atlantic was, you know, dangerous journey. And so I had no idea there was East Indian and I came across this piece of information. I said, I have to write about this. This is my story.

I know you found him in an archive. But what archive was it? And what were you looking for first?

Actually, no, originally, I did find him in an article, an article by a friend and the article mentions, these early East Indians, as they were called, who came over to the Americas and right up to even beyond the American Revolution. And in fact, some of them fought in the revolution on both sides. And, and then I went looking to make absolutely sure, you know, that this person did exist, and that he was here in Virginia. And what I found is land record, but he’s listed as what’s called a headright, he was brought by this English settler as a headright.

Okay. And I’m going to ask you to explain headright, because honestly, I didn’t quite know the phrase until I saw it in your note in the afterword. I mean, obviously, indentured servitude, a lot of us are familiar with that. But headright, I was just kind of like, wait a minute, what would you explain that?

I think, they were keen on settling the colony, right, settling what’s very newly fledged colony. So the more people you brought over, then they had to provide incentives to bring people over. And so for every person you brought over, you would get 50 acres of land. And so of course, many of them brought over relatives and friends, but some of them did bring over servants, because servants were people to work on those — tobacco, tobacco is a labor-intensive crop. And so the need for people to work on the tobacco plantations snd it looks like Tony East Indian is always listed as as one of the people brought over by this gentleman, George Manaphy.

Okay, and you set this up in a really, I have to say interesting why we meet Tony first on the Coromandel Coast of India, which is where Madras is. And of course, the British East India Company factors in quite a lot, but that’s how Tony gets to London, where he’s kidnapped. He’s 11 years old and he’s kidnapped off the streets of London. Now, I’m assuming there’s some basis, in fact, for this kind of thing, whereas you just said, tobacco is a labor intensive crop. You’ve got to find people to work it, but he’s grabbed off the street, put on a boat, he survives. And he ends up in Virginia.

No, it did happen. Boys, mostly boys were snatched off the streets of England. And the term I believe, was spirited. You know, they were spirited away. And so they were spirited off the streets. And the people who were engaged, it was a large, I mean, it was actually a complicated enterprise. We’re not talking about sort of individual kidnappers who decided, and people say, like, important people in London, were making money off this. So these young boys, most of them destitute orphans, or they’ve been taken off London, dumped on these ships. And before they knew it, they were on their way to Virginia. What really happened to the historically Tony is unknown, but I tried to work within the realm of sort of possibility, you know, things, all of these things were possible. Yeah.

I mean, what you’ve created in The East Indian is this combination of coming-of-age story, and also an adventure story. I mean, how much fun was this for you to write?

It was actually a lot of fun. I had, I mean, huge, huge anxieties is before I started, because, I mean, I had to transport my way back to 1635. And it’s very interesting, almost nothing, there’s no work. I mean, I think I came across a work of fiction meant for adults, at least set in Virginia, of the, you know, early settlement of Virginia and very little on indentured servants. And so, I really had sort of no other text I could, you know, talk to. And of course, I had the historical documents, and because of my own training, you know, I was well versed in reading and understanding that, and really getting engaged with that kind of stuff. But I was like, I have to transport myself. And only then I can transport my reader. But I wanted to write a historical novel that was also coming of age novel, and a coming of age in a very, very complex kind, right? I mean, the coming of age happens because of that movement, right, because of the movement across well, I mean, that completely informs his personality and his life and his growth. And I also wanted to write an I mean, I love the old-fashioned adventure story, you know that things happen and, you know, people are sort of moving forward in space, and unexpected encounters and looking for things and I wanted to write that I also wanted to write a story about the nature of being East Indian, about the sort of complicated nature of a brown racial identity.

And I think there are a lot of folks to who don’t always realize that America wasn’t just Black and white and Native, early on that there were other folks from other places. And it’s just the way that historical record was put down, in a way. It’s like, well, it’s entirely plausible that people I mean, the idea that somehow Europe was not multiracial until very recently, I’m like, huh, where there’s trade, where there are ships, you get a lot of different kinds of people getting on ships and moving around. And certainly, you know, 1619, we have a whole new understanding of what the American landscape was like, because of that book, and in the subsequent projects, the film and the documentary series, and what have you. But in terms of research, though, I mean, you don’t want this to read like a history book, so you’ve got at some point, let the research sit. I mean, we’re not running around as readers fact checking you, we just want the story. Can we talk about the research process, though, for this book because it seems like you hit a lot of material.

Yeah, I read a lot, a lot more than a lot of people would say was needed. But that’s just my nature. I mean, I have to, it’s not just about knowing all the little facts, and all the little details, of course, all of this was important. I mean, I got to know about, I mean, tobacco, everything about the colonial cultivation of tobacco, and I became an expert in colonial medicine, and curing people, with I don’t know, deer urine and that kind of thing. And I also got to know what plants, the animals, the weather patterns and of course, the larger things like the movement from, which is not a neat movement, but from indentured slavery to indentured servitude to slavery, you know, and how that happened, and so on. So I studied, and it’s not like, you’re gonna dump everything in the novel, as you said, you know, the novel is not the place to, any novel is not the place to show off your knowledge. But it sort of has to simmer in the background and for me, I think I have to, it has to become part of me. You know, that’s the important thing it has to when I sit down, I have to take myself back there when I sit down to write and I have to take my, and the only way I can do that is to read and read and read. So I read for two years, more than two years before.

Oh, before you even started writing, it was two years before you started writing. So you start with the idea of Tony, obviously, you find this character and you create the story around him you do the research. It’s all simmering. Did you surprise yourself at any point when you were writing this book? Was there something that Tony did or something that happened, without spoilers, obviously, because we’re airing very close to your pub date. Is there something that just made you sort of sit back and say, oh, wait a minute, why?

Well, yeah, I think, yeah, as the story went on, I had a broad sense of how I wanted his life to unfold. But as the story went on, I think there were things I was not planning on and, you know, without again, giving things away, right, that there’s a moment where he does something which kind of haunts him for the rest of his life. You know, that was something I really did not plan on. There were those little things I think, cannot just little things take things for that matter, you know, as a story, I think you just have to, you know, as I think most authors would just sort of go with the flow of it because I think the other thing about historical fiction is you want your character because I mean, let me let me back up a little bit. I’m very aware. I mean, now maybe it’s because of my upbringing in India and all of that, but I’m very aware that the individual life is shaped by historical forces. That’s something I cannot get away from, which is why it’s impossible for me to write a story just about an individual and their conflicts and their families and so on. For me, it always has to be connected to something bigger. But at the same time, you don’t want your character simply to represent a historical process, right? So you sort of have that macro reality of the history, but you also have this individual, he has to be interesting in and of himself, he shouldn’t simply be a representation of history. That’s where the unexpected comes in because there are so many things you don’t expect of your character, an indentured servant from India, life is going to unfold inevitably, but at the same time, he’s also an individual, right? He’s just not any, no one is any indentured servant from anywhere and so I think that’s that the unexpected comes in.

Yeah. And he chases opportunities too, I mean, he ends up as you say, taking this journey, but and there are people who help him along the way. But it’s also because he walks into the frame and says, well, I would like to do this, or this, this piece of the story is not working for me, I have to change my life. And it doesn’t always work out the way he’s hoping or would like, but it’s wild to see. And also remembering that he’s a teenager, when this has happened, you know, a teenager in 1635, that’s middle age, you’re having a very different experience, you know, than a teenager in present day. And I sort of I love that I’m forced to remember that, you know, that childhood is a Victorian invention kind of thing. And it’s like, yeah, this is a totally different world. And no, you don’t just go to the store when you need something, you know, if you can’t grow it, or if you can’t barter for it, if you can’t buy it from someone else. You don’t have it. Or traveling into the interior, at one point, Tony, and another character who shall remain nameless at the moment, they go in search of a body of water, and they have to work westward in order to do it. And it doesn’t go well.

It’s a tough, tough world. And you know, the more you read about it, you realize, oh, my god, how? And what always struck me and continues to strike me sort of at random moments. Is this boy all the way from India? I mean, what was his life like? And how strange and how bizarre and how lonely in some ways, you know, and but at the same time, I’m sure I always believe that the moments of curiosity and happiness and joy, I think we find them in the most simplest of circumstances.

Yeah, well, he finds his people. He finds his people, and it is very sweet, what happens and how it happens. The other thing you give him, too, that I really appreciate, is that Shakespeare and I’m coming back to your work as a Shakespeare scholar, he finds a character, the character in Midsummer Night’s Dream, he’s taken to the, to the Theatre in London, I just want to talk about that for a second, because, your entire career has been Shakespeare and Renaissance literature. And here you are sort of stepping outside of that, but you never really leave Shakespeare behind. So you knew that that was always going to percolate through this story. And you were going to give that?

Yeah, in fact, I would say the story came from both directions, the discovery of Tony and also the fact that there is a little Indian boy in Midsummer Night’s Dream, and that has impressed I mean, lots of scholars, I’m not claiming I’m the only one, you know, obviously not anything about Shakespeare, lots of scholars. And so that always interested me the fact there was this boy, and you know, what is this little boy doing in this, in this play about fairies, and you know, he’s the figure the king and the queen quarrel over and in a way so Tony and the little boy, so I said, okay, a boy alone in the woods, an Indian boy alone in the woods, that’s a lot like my Tony. And so the two came together, and that’s their the so I think the Indian boy is interesting, because, to me, the very fact that Shakespeare puts them in that play is an example. I mean, Shakespeare lived in London, as it just said, London was multicultural. And so I’m sure you know, there were East Indians on the docks, and in the harbor, and that kind of thing. And I’m sure, you know, he encountered one of them and there have been articles written on the East Indians in London. And I think it’s a sign of sort of early globalization kind of percolating into Shakespeare. I mean, you see that with Othello too right? I mean, you have a Black man as the protagonist. And I think it’s Shakespeare’s awareness in some ways that pr the play’s awareness rather about a world that is some bigger than one thing, and it’s the beginning. And for me, that’s what’s fascinating about the 1600s and which is why I love Shakespeare, but I also chose to study the 1600s Because to me, it’s the beginning of something huge and remarkable and I keep reinforcing that on my students. In a way, an entire new world is coming into being in a world that was sort of globalized and modern and the way we understand that, with the discovery of the Americas, and the growing popularity of the printing press, and all of that, and early capitalism, all of that, right. So, for me, the little Indian boy is really a product, you know, in the poet’s imagination of all this, this new world.

Also, he can read and write, and he’s one of the only characters who can read and write and that opens up his universe in a way where other kids might not necessarily have the same opportunities. But okay, so you spend two years doing the reading for the research, you find your character, you find everything else. And I’m wondering, though, are you outlining as you go? Do you know where the story is going? Or do you just have to follow the work and let it unfold? I mean, you have a pretty significant cast of characters. But the book is not an overwhelming length at all. It’s a very quick read, which I was surprised at how much you did, in, you know, what, 300 something?

Not even, not even 300.

And yet, I’m in this world. There’s so much happening. I want to know everything that’s going on, I want to know where we’re going. I’m delighted by the end of this book, too. But for you, as the writer, where are you? Is this is going on? I mean, seriously? Are you working off an outline? Are you just kind of saying, alright, I’m gonna tell the story.

I do outline, because I think novel is a sort of unruly beast, you know, you need to unless you have it a little bit under control, I would find it really hard to just sort of walk in blind and get started. So I do have an outline of sorts. But you never really stick to it. You know, as you go on, you know, things modify, things change. And in fact, I rewrote the whole second half of the novel and I had a very different kind of second half. And it was Eric Simonoff, my agent who suggested, he said, you know, I don’t know that the second half is really working. And of course, at first, I was like, what do you mean, but then, you know, I’ve thought about it, and I saw where he was coming from. So I sat down, and I completely rewrote the second half of the novel, which was not something I was planning on. So I roughly outline, but I let the story carry me and I let the character carry me. And I think there’s so much happening, people don’t, I mean, it’s the complexity of the time period, and much as a writer that you can be picked up and be swept along by, you know, there’s so much I mean, there are five millions of things going on at the same time. And so I think there are so many possibilities to choose from, and you cannot plan every single one of them, you just get to that road, and then you decide which are you going to go this way or this way.

I didn’t realize you’ve rewritten the whole second half, because the book really flows. I think that’s so important that you don’t get stuck when you’re reading historical fiction. I know I said this a little earlier, like, I don’t need to fact check you, I need to hear a story. That’s wild to me that you had to rewrite the entire second. So, the physical writing of the book, how long did that take you?

I don’t know if one is supposed to say this kind of thing. Because people always say I wrote this book for six years and seven years. I don’t work that way. I work pretty, it’s, you know, I do other things. I mean, I have a full-time job. I’m a Shakespearean and I just finished a Shakespeare book, in fact, just before this. So I just sit down and go for it. And I luckily, I was in sabbatical, I have to say that. So I was in sabbatical. So I would say about a year and a half, you know about that much. But I tend to be a fairly disciplined writer once I started I just keep going.

Well, also, I have to say, I mean, again, and I know I’ve hinted at this, but the way this book flows and the way the story flows, and the way you keep us turning pages. And this is, I mean, I remember being taught about this period of American history in school, but it’s not something that, you know, an average reader is walking around with a lot of information in their head about so, for me, the world building was really, really important. And hearing you say that, you know, yeah, I did a ton of research, but you don’t need to see all of it. That is so clear when you’re reading this. It’s just, I handed myself over to this world and these characters, and essentially you. So when did you know you had the narrative voice? I mean, was it after you rewrote that second piece? I mean, the first half the book flies by and again, we’re on the Coromandel Coast of India, and then we’re in London, and then we’re in the Americas and it’s just like, boom, here we are in the story. So I sort of feel like you knew early what you had.

I think more than anything, I think I had this kind of fondness for this character. You know, he was, he could have been my nephews, you know, and I had this kind of fondness for this character. And so I just kind of went along with that. And, you know, I started with this place of sort of curiosity and affection both for this little orphan boy, really, essentially. And it took me through the whole thing, I think, and I didn’t, I don’t recall, of course, you know, there are always plot points you struggle over. I mean, I think that’s the most difficult thing about writing a novel, right? You have to sustain plot, but I think I was so invested in my character, that I sort of floated on that. And that kept me going, and I was quite sad actually to part from him at the end.

Yeah, I can see that, I can see that. But when you’re reading, just for your own pleasure, not for research. But if you’re reading just for pleasure, are you reading for character first, are you reading for story?

I’m thinking I’m reading for something a little bit more elusive actually, I’m reading something like style, or I don’t know what to call it really. But I don’t think I’m reading particularly for either, I don’t think I would definitely say I’m not reading for story, though, I do enjoy a good story and story, but I think I’m reading for, for whatever reason, I’m very aware of the sort of the, the technicalities of the novel and how a novel sort of works, and maybe it’s voice or something like that. But that’s really what I’m reading for and for me, that’s what marks a good book. From I mean, you could have a fantastic plot and even a great character, but if you haven’t been able to pull off the writing, you know, I’m kind of enhanced. Sorry, but that you’ve kind of lost me.

Yeah. So basically, you know it when you see it.

Yeah, that’s pretty much it. Right? In a few pages actually, you kind of know it in a few pages. And it’s really hard to, it’s sort of a little elusive. It’s hard to pin down what it is. But I think, I mean, I think quite a few people have the sort of awareness of what I’m talking about.

I actually, the best way to explain is you just know it when you see it. The only way to explain it. Let’s talk about literary influences for a second because obviously, you know, this is a really fun coming of age adventure story. A lot happens. Shakespeare, we’ve talked about a little bit, but who are some of the other influences on you as a writer on this book in particular, what are what are some of the books and writers have helped make you you?

Well, I grew up I mean, I spent the first few decades of my life in India and colonial hangover or whatever, my life was suffused with British literature. I mean, right from kindergarten, from the nursery rhymes right up to college, and I was an English major so British literature has been a huge, huge, huge influence on my life. And Shakespeare, of course, but I think Dickens has been a big influence in sort of the 19th century novel and sort of the orphan protagonists, the coming of age, you know, and I like sort of wide cast of characters. And I also love the way he kind of angles the comic, and the tragic, which to me is important. So Dickens, and all of British literature contemporary to Hilary Mantel, who wrote the, you know, the Wolf Hall series, she was a huge, huge influence on my writing. And I was also fortunate that I think I grew up at a time there was a sort of increasing pride in South Asian literature and what was called Commonwealth literature, and then later postcolonial literature. So writing from Africa, Ben Okri and Chinua Achebe and writing from the Caribbean, and Arundhati Roy and Amitav Ghosh and all of those writers who wrote Indian literature. So it’s been a huge hodgepodge of influences, really and that was just the way it was. And I think that was the biggest gift that was given to me. And, you know, this is why it surprises me sometimes when people say they don’t want to read books about people who are not like them. And to me, I read nothing but books about, the books I read were about people who are completely unlike me. And for me, that was what reading was about, you know, I wanted to read about other lives and other experiences. And in fact, I’m not particularly interested about reading about, you know, my own experience and it was a gift I think, I’m very, very fortunate that I have this sort of collage of influences from all over the world really and later I mean, I did not study American literature growing up but later after moving here, I made it a point to read and study and so it’s I think it’s huge mishmash of influences. That’s my life. I mean, everything is a huge mishmash.

Yeah, but it’s really exciting to hear you talk about world literature in that way, where you’re saying, you know, I’m trying to read people who are not me, or I like reading people who are not. I think that’s really important, especially when you talk about the 1600s being sort of this pivot point for the world, right? Everything changes, because of globalization. I mean, if you look at how shipping changed the world, and the interaction between and I have all sorts of feelings about, you know, the British East Indian, I have so many, that’s a whole separate conversation. Yeah, at the same time, you know, that kind of colonialism and all of it did change. It changed the way we live, it changed maps, it changed empire.

It’s suffused our lives. I think if you grew up in a post-colonial, and I mean America, is a post-colonial country, but I think that awareness is kind of gone, you know, and while a country like India, 75 years, it’s not a long time, really, if you think about the sweep of history, and I think we are very, I mean, we speak English, you know, and yeah, the speaker maybe an Indian accented English, but it’s still English, and our lives are informed and suffused by the colonial presence, really. And that’s true a lot most of the world I’d say. And so there’s awareness that there’s always that your life is really a result of the coming together, you know, of multiple, multiple, multiple forces, and there’s no way outside of that. And for me, the story of Tony is really the beginning of that, and he is really a product of you know of that.

Do you feel like the story is done for you? Or would you come back to Tony, at a different point.

I haven’t thought about that, really. And I did have Tony having a daughter at the end. And I would write like to write about a woman. I mean, the thought has crossed my mind, but I cannot pretend I have any clear plans. I mean, I am working on another historical novel set a little bit later in the 1800s in New England, but they were surprisingly also, you know, I’m working in the world of sort of popular entertainment and the early circus and that kind of thing. So that’s the, that’s the next project. And so now I’m reading everything I can about circuses in 1815 in America.

So that, I’m sorry, that’s going to be some wild reading. That has got to be some wild reading, yeah, I, you know, America, she’s, she’s a funny place sometimes she really is.

And then the history of the circus is so closely connected to ideas of race. And if you think of all the people being exhibited, and you know, and all kinds of things. Yeah, so it’s really shocking and crazy and bizarre.

Well, you know, PT Barnum is ours, we have a lot of PT Barnum’s, you know, he’s got a very long legacy in this country. And I’m really excited to see what you do. So all right, I know you just talked about how we have Tony’s daughter at the very end, and I’m really not giving anything away, y’all. I’m not giving anything away by telling you that, but and I know you just said Well, I’m thinking I’m gonna write about a woman next. But Lydia is one of my favorite characters in this book, and you need someone who’s a little more grounded in the universe, but still an outsider. And that’s Lydia, can we talk about her for a second? She’s so great.

I mean, to me, Lydia came partially because I mean, the historical fact is that the East Indian population merges with the African American one, very quickly. And in fact, the children like I say, in the notes of the book, the children born of the union of East Indians, and African Africans were essentially known as they just seem to be identified as African American or Black. And I was thinking, and I wanted, of course, to find him, to find love and, and find family and all of that, and it’s natural and probable that he would have found a woman of that background. You know, here is this young man who in some ways escaped from the life of the indentured labor by studying Metis you know, by stir. And there is also on the historical record that there was an East Indian who became was an apothecaries apprentice before people say this is unreal, but it did happen. But I wanted someone who would sort of stand shoulder to shoulder with him. I did not want the sort of accomplished East Indian as opposed to everyone else, you know. And so this is why I had this African woman who’s as smart as intelligent and in some ways is like you said far more grounded because he is a little bit overwrought as he himself puts it and, you know, grounded until it’s the sort of, you know, the guiding force and the light in his life and towards the end. So I really enjoy Lydia and I, she’s one of the few women in the story, there are not many women because it’s the nature of the world that they were in. And I wanted her in some ways to combine the mother. And to have a little bit of the mother he lost. But she, to me stood for America. She was the America he found, you know, this foreigner, this outsider, he’s looking for his place in this, in this new value, can’t even call it a country in this new column yet, for me, he finds America and this girl who is African American, because she is born in America, her parents came over, but she’s born here. And to me, that’s where he finds his place. And he finds America by finding her way, you know, so that’s what, so she’s a real person. But she also is a symbol to me. And I think it’s important for me to that it is a black person who’s the symbol of America, which would be very often, you know, because to me, this this group, particularly captures the complexities and the tragedies, really, of globalization and, you know, early colonialism. And so to me, she is America, and to Him to Tony, she is America. Yeah. All right.

So Lydia is the beating heart of parent the story, right? I mean, we’ve got Tony we’ve got Lydia I love them both. But you know, you gotta have some bad guys. And you do a very cool thing, though, because and we’re not going to talk about the bad guys by name. So people can be surprised when they meet them and, and not have expectations of you know, who’s Abadi just because we had we mentioned the My name. But one of the things I love is that your bad guys are not just bad guys. They’re complicated. And some of them are greedy, and some of them are gross. And one of them is just a bad dude. But he’s also you understand why he’s not a good guy. So when you’re creating your villains, when you’re creating the bad guys, are you starting with the idea? You know, this, you’ve got to have conflict, right? In a novel, you have to have conflict. But did you know where you wanted to bring them in? Did you know who they were going to be? Or did you just say, Okay, I need this kind of representation. And we’re going to go from there, like, how did you walk that tightrope between sort of caricatures of bad guys, because you need stuff to happen. And these, sort of, very complex bad guys that you gave us, I think,

the historical moment, in a way, helps me as it were, because, I mean, it’s a life of tremendous struggle for everyone, you know, black, white, brown, whatever the case is. And so here, were these people on some, and it can bring up I mean, I think this kind of world, this kind of moment, can bring out the best in you, but it can definitely bring out the worst in you too. Right? I mean, when you are, essentially it’s survival and struggle, and even the one bad guy was the sort of the grossest, he is someone who’s really trying to make it to, you know, and as Tony’s friend later, and they are all trying to make it and in the process of trying to carve out not even carve out is essentially scratch out some kind of existence for themselves in this world. They do compromise, rather compromise heavily on a lot of things. And I think I was for me, just as this awareness of that that, would I have been any better? I don’t know, I frankly, don’t know what I have been above all of it. And then some kind of Saint I don’t know myself. And I think that the complexity of the historical moment, made it impossible for me to simply have the sort of the caricature of the bill. And I was too aware of the sort of the struggle that almost everyone almost everyone went through to make it and I think that’s what shaped all the characters were not the good guys of the PC.

Are you hoping that’s what readers take away that that compassion? I mean, you hide a lot of big sort of ideas in sort of a deceptively skinny novel, that’s part adventure story in part coming of age. But is it that compassion that you really want? I mean, not just the globalization and not just the, you know, this Hinge Movement, right where the world starts to become the world that we know, but it seems like compassion for all of these people is the thing that you’re really asking us to think about.

Yeah, compassion. Yeah, definitely. I think compassion, a sense of sort of empathy. You know, because they were all in a way, embarking on an adventure, right. It was not just Tony; all of their lives were an adventure and a complicated adventure. It’s not just the fun quest for treasure kind of adventure. And so I think compassion and empathy and I go back to the word I used before because it’s a word that, you know, it’s a sense of sort of wonder that all of this came together and that all of this happens. For me the very fact that there was in America and people discover it even to this day, I make the journey across the Atlantic 100 times each, you know, when I traveled, but each time I looked down from the planer, I think of those little wooden boats and those other ships that came later with the slaves in them and I cannot forget that and I cannot be filled with the sense of sort of both shock and awe. You know that it happened.

Yeah, I’m right there with you. Brinda Charry, thank you so much for joining us on Poured Over. The East Indian is out now.

Thank you. Thank you so much. It’s been such a pleasure talking to you.

Poured Over