Poured Over: Caroline O’Donoghue on The Rachel Incident

Jenna Seery

“God, I was an idiot, but I had good legs.”

Caroline O’Donoghue’s The Rachel Incident is a witty and emotional journey through friendships, first loves and all the challenges that come with being in your early 20s. O’Donoghue joins us to talk about her incredibly relatable characters, realistic love interests, writing for adults and YA and more with guest host, Jenna Seery. We end this episode with TBR Topoff book recommendations from Madyson and Mary.  

This episode of Poured Over was hosted by Jenna Seery and mixed by Harry Liang.   

New episodes land Tuesdays and Thursdays (with occasional Saturdays) here and on your favorite podcast app.        

Featured Books (Episode):
The Rachel Incident by Caroline O’Donoghue
All Our Hidden Gifts by Caroline O’Donoghue
Circle of Friends by Maeve Binchy
Brother of the More Famous Jack by Barbara Trapido
Flowers in the Attic by V.C. Andrews
Kafka on the Shore by Haruki Murakami
Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow by Gabrielle Zevin

Featured Books (TBR Topoff):
How to Find Love in a Bookshop by Veronica Henry
Someone Else’s Shoes by Jojo Moyes

Full Episode Transcript
Jenna Seery
Hi, I’m Jenna Seery, a bookseller and associate producer of Poured Over and today I am joined by Caroline O’Donoghue, the author of The Rachel Incident, a book that you are all going to love so very much. You may be familiar with her YA fantasy series, All Our Hidden Gifts. But this is something so different and so unique. I am so excited to talk about this book. Caroline, thank you so much for being with us today.

Caroline O’Donoghue
Hello, thank you so much for such a wonderful introduction.

JS
I read this book so fast the first time that I got my hands on it, because I could not stop turning the pages once it started. And so I would love to give my version of the events but I think I’d like to start with you setting the book up for all of us.

CO
I thought you were letting me off the hook because I was like, oh, great. Somebody else can summarize the plot while giving nothing away. Lovely. So The Rachel Incident takes place in 2010 in Cork City, which is sort of a smallish city in the south of Ireland. And I don’t know how many people know this, but the financial crash hit Ireland particularly hard, it hit everywhere pretty hard, hut in Ireland hardest, we think. The lead character, Rachel Murray, she is graduating with her final year of like an English degree. She’s gone to university in her hometown. She’s kind of old, old before her time a little bit. She works part time in a bookshop, as she’s finishing her degree. Life is very gray for her. I think she you know, she feels quite disappointed by life already, by a lack of opportunities. And then one day during a Christmas shift, she meets the person who’s going to change her life forever, really and his name is James Devlin. He is incredibly charismatic and very fun Christmas temp, who at this point is in the closet, even though it’s kind of one of those, why the hell is this guy in the closet whenever one knows he’s gay kind of situations, which was not a sensitively dealt with topic in the late 2000s. And so they become dear, dear friends very quickly, they move in together very quickly. And then one of their first sort of like games they play as newfound best friends, you often need to have a bonding ritual, when you very quickly make a new best friend is Rachel confides in him that she has a huge crush on her English professor, Dr. Fred Byrne. They decide in a kind of a giddy moment of like, are we really doing this? They’re going to hold a book launch for Dr. Byrne at the bookshop they work at for his incredibly unreadable, literary sort of academic texts. And at that book launch the plan Rachel’s has for Dr. Byrne goes very wrong. Actually, James gets with Dr. Byrne, and the rest of the novel is kind of dealing with both the fallout of that, and just every all the decisions they make afterwards, and this year of their lives where they are forced to grow up and yeah, and that’s it.

And that’s it, except not because there is, if everyone thinks that that’s like the big powder keg moment, then they just have to keep reading, because these events are just going to like keep hitting these characters in a way that when you are at that point in your life, it feels like everything does just hit you like one after another after another after another in a way that feels so relatable. Because when you’re at that point in your life, everything feels like how just another thing on the list of the way your life is going wrong.

Totally, totally. And it’s kind of there’s something very there’s like a fierce indignity when you’re that age and you’re a young adult, and you realize that the world’s problems are also your problems. And like, I think especially as millennial people were like, no, but we were told we were special. I can’t be the victim of market forces. Yeah, that’s not in my narrative. You know, right.

I was supposed to be the main character and then I find out, that’s not quite how it works.

It’s true. That’s not how the economy works. No, it doesn’t care.

And Rachel herself is such a relatable character that she’s so deep. There’s like so many layers when you’re going through, I found myself laughing with her, cringing with her, covering my eyes being like, I can’t believe that she did this, but then also making me think of all the things where I was like, I remember, I probably would have made that exact same choice, even though now I’m like, how could you have thought that that would work? I just have to know how Rachel’s voice came to you. How did you sort of be into form this incredible character?

Oh, thank you. I’m so glad that you like her. I feel very dearly towards her. Her voice is actually— really it’s interesting. You know, I’ve been doing this job for a while now and it’s lovely to keep discovering new things about it. But I discovered, this is the first book I’ve ever written mostly in the past tense, if the entire plot of this novel were happening in the present tense, and all these things that happened to Rachel because of her decisions, were just hitting her day after day, and we were just reading a completely linear event, it would feel quite harrowing, I think. I think you would take her at her word when she when she tells you that, like her boyfriend is mean to her, or he’s not reliable or whatever, we’ll get to him later. Or that, you know, the sort of struggles she’s having with her both her degree and her job and her friends, they all seem like a lot, like real tough chew. And they definitely were tough chews, you know, for her going to going through those things. But because she’s telling that from the perspective of someone in their mid 30s, who’s fine, she’s in a happy marriage, she’s pregnant. That’s how we open the book, she has a nice career, she’s got a great circle of friends, you get a sense that like, this woman, her life is full, and it’s good at but she’s telling you about this terrible series of things that happened to her in her early 20s. And I think because she’s looking back, rather than living through these things, presently, she has a certain amount of affection for her young self that I think we should all strive to achieve, you know, the kind of thing of like, God, I was an idiot, but I had good legs. I mean, that kind of that sort of attitude. And I think that was like, unlocked that thing. The rest of Rachel came together really easily. And the book just kind of flowed out because it’s somebody who has a great deal of self compassion. And those characters I discovered are much more fun to write.

And they’re much more fun to read, I think, going through, she’s going to be okay. When you’re going through those moments with her, you have more this sense of hope than you would just being like, Oh, how is she going to come out of this? How is this going to end? It really allows you to, like enjoy those moments and like seep into the moments where you know that things aren’t going her way. But we’ve all been there, we’ve all had those moments where even if you in the moment are like, I know, this is not gonna help me in the long run, but it’s gonna feel better now.

Totally and I think it’s, well, there’s a risk when you’re writing a novel in which you know, the lead character is going to be fine. Like, there’s a question there of stakes, and how do you keep the stakes high and the stakes going. And to me, the sort of the internal stakes of it are kind of you know, her, she has this huge friendship with her best friend, James. And it’s a very defining relationship in her life. And you are also quite clear from page one that her and James are still friends, like they live in different countries now, but they’re still dear friends, we see each other a lot and make, you know, very special holidays to go see each other and that kind of thing. You’re like, Oh, good, they’re still friends. That’s nice, how nice long friendships. But then as you go through, kind of the emotional stakes almost become I can’t believe they’re still friends, despite all these things they have done to one another. And I think that, to me, is like such a testament to like, long friendships and like we’ve all— if you’ve known someone for 15 years, you’ve done some things to them. And they’ve done some things to you. And you’ve said the unsayable. And, and that is like, it’s like, that becomes the stakes to me, you know, almost.

And I think, I mean, I definitely have some friends like James. And I think, everyone, I hope everyone has a friend like James, even though you go through terrible things together, you need that person who’s seen you at your worst to be able to see you at your best. And that friendship is so well defined in this, I think friendship is such a hard thing to write because almost everyone has friends. And so almost everyone comes to it with this expectation of well, that’s not what my friendships are like, or, you know, that is what my friendships are like, how did it feel to sort of write that relationship between the two of them?

It’s so interesting that thing of everybody has, friends and so on one level, it should be the easiest thing to write because it’s like, yeah, everyone likes hanging out with their friends. Everyone has complex feelings about their friends, go for it, you know, but it’s also this thing of like, hearing about another friendship groups’, private jokes is a bit like hearing about somebody else’s dream. It’s like, okay, and? I’m the kind of thing right? So it’s really, it’s a tricky thing to write a dynamic. You’re selling it as being kind of lovable, and inescapable and so heavy and beautiful without sort of boring to the reader, I guess, I think, again, it always comes back to stakes, like a friendship. I think we think that great, dramatic stories can’t come out of the mere friendship because it’s like, well, what are the stakes? You know, it’s like, it’s not love. It’s not marriage. It’s not children. It’s not a wedding or whatever. So therefore, what is the framework holding the story up? You know, and with Rachel and James, their friendship is immediately injected with so many secrets. There’s this thing where the very beginning of their dynamic. She’s so excited that he wants to hang out with her, and I think she’s coming at it from this very 2010, she’s 20 years old in 2010 and she’s selling thinking, oh my god, a gay man wants to be friends with me, like, I must be cosmopolitan. And then she has his immediate thing where, you know, she’s off to meet her boyfriend for a drink. And she says, Oh, generally, you know, come with us, you know, I’m sure you’d love to meet him or whatever. And then James makes a crack being like, I wouldn’t want him to get jealous. And then Rachel laughs like a little too hard. And he’s a bit like, okay, kind of thing. And she’s like, I just got like, come on, you’re gay. We all know you’re gay. And he’s like, I’m not I’m very straight. And she’s like, okay, are we still joking? thing? And it’s like this first thing in their friendship where she loses her footing really quickly. And she’s like, Oh, no, I’ve hurt someone. And I wouldn’t say their whole dynamic is like that. But definitely, there is an immediate sense of like, they want to do right by each other all of the time. And they don’t always and that to me injects the relationship with steaks. And that that is the key to writing I think, rather than trying to slavishly dedicate to the page. Okay, but how do I make a private joke funny for everybody? It’s more about like, Okay, what’s at risk in this relationship all the time.

That’s what makes it so easy to read and easy to understand. Because everyone’s been in that situation with, you’ve, said something and you’re like, I did not know that that would kick off like that. And you’re like, I really just especially an early friendship, you’re like, I don’t know, I just really want to be your friend. And yeah, but I guess we’re here.

Right, right. And totally, I’ve been thinking a lot about sort of, gay men and straight women and how we, for some reason, even though in terms of like frank depictions of queerness, in the media, obviously, there have been coded references for years, you know, there’s always been gay characters and things, we just weren’t calling them gay characters. But in terms of like frank and honest depictions of sort of gay men and straight women, we have Will & Grace and, and we have them kind of thing. But and we have, you know, Hannah and Elijah in Girls, but like, really, there aren’t that many relationships that are depicted like this. And yet we have convinced ourselves that it is a cliche, and that it is boring. And it’s kind of like almost eye roll-y to even try and write something of merit or of literary value that focuses on this relationship. And I think people when they’ve been discussing this book with me have kind of been using some sort of term gay best friend and quotes. And I think it’s such a worthy dynamic of like, literary study. And I think part of that, particularly when you’re talking about James and Rachel, so much of it has to do with the mutual holding up of fantasy, you know, like, she will let him be straight, if that’s what he needs to be right now. And she won’t question him because she loves him. And he will make her feel like somebody who’s not just like, you know, what she feels like a dumpy English grad with no future. Like, he kind of let her believe she Ava Gardner, you know, kind of, and that’s, I find that very beautiful.

They definitely meet each other where the other one is, they don’t ask each other to be something different, they’re ready to be there for each other. And so much of that is the minutiae of their relationship, the like, sitting in bed together, eating pastries, and you know, just the little details of their life, that they kind of build together in this like, terrible house that has no heating, and, you know, like, just feel so bleak for maybe other people to look at from the outside, but they’re really trying to give each other worthwhile things to like, look forward to and to get through this time in their life. It really hits you in the heart.

Thank you so much. I’m so delighted by that.

Do you do you incorporate a lot of your personal life into these characters? Do you have a James, do

you have a Carey? Do you have these characters that you’re pulling details from?

It’s very interesting with this one, because this is my sixth book. So I wrote two novels for adults that came out in the UK and Europe and a trilogy for teenagers and now this one. The Rachel Incident has the most autobiographical details from my life put in them, you know, but every novel I’ve written has borrowed from my life, hugely kind of thing, but it’s funny because I’ve, I’ve hidden in plain sight with the YA stuff because of fantasy, like, my entire story, my entire teens is like, written across those three books over 400,000 words, but nobody ever thinks that because it’s about magic, you know, so it’s lovely, but in terms of the stuff in Rachel that’s borrowed from life. I am. When I was 20, I was working in retail in HMV, which I think there were maybe a couple of in the US but essentially a Virgin Megastore, a Christmas temp called Ryan started working there. Everyone thought Ryan was gay. And he wasn’t prepared to come out at that time, we quickly moved in together. And we lived together for a year and we remain best friends now. And in terms of the actual plot, like this is like quite a high wire relationship plot where like, there’s a lot of betrayal and secrets and all that kind of stuff. And that is all fiction. It’s all sort of soap opera. And that’s all that but um, the emotions of the time were very real, which was that I was somebody who I’m not very like Rachel in temperament, but in terms of somebody who’d felt like their life was over before it even begun, I was very much there. And our lives together that we created, it made me feel like I was at the center of a very glamorous, hopeful and fun world. And I just really wanted to convey that you know, that you just all the many of the stories that we get about young people opening up to themselves are about young people like going moving to New York, or moving to London or whatever. And this is about somebody who moves two miles down the road, you know, and still has this enormous like renaissance of the soul and grows up hugely, even though they’re in the city they’ve been in their entire lives.

There’s nothing quite like the trauma bond friendship from working in retail. I’ve spent most of my life up till now working in retail, whether that’s in bookstores or other and there’s nothing quite like that immediate and high-pressure friendship of working in a store with someone.

Oh totally, especially if you meet somebody on a Christmas shift. It’s like they have seen you in a position and you have seen them in a position.

Absolutely. It’s it creates a different relationship that people can’t really understand unless you’ve experienced that interaction. Along with these great characters, there are so many other characters in that. I mean, really, this book does not work without the characters that you’ve created. They sing on the page, whether or not you like them at any given moment is kind of dependent on what they’re going through at the time. Rachel has a boyfriend, Carey, who is very intriguing is not perhaps your typical romantic lead in a novel. I think that that I really enjoyed that aspect of him that we don’t often see. love interest in in books that aren’t these like dashing, gallant men?

So of all the like, responses I’m curious about I think Carey is the one I’m the most curious about because the thing about Carey is that he appears about 100 pages into the novel and the novel is not crazy long, you know, you already have James and Rachel, who are like dominating a lot of just space and time with just their dynamic and how fizzy it is and fun. And then you have Dr. Byrne, who’s this sort of towering figure who they both think find so glamorous and his wife Deenie’s kind of her own form of like bougie, artsy glamour. And so that’s already like a crowded house. And so for somebody to really earn their place as a romantic lead, they really have to earn their place, you know. And so, the first interaction that Rachel and Carey have together is she’s bumming a cigarette off him on a night out, which is how I’ve met 80% of the men I’ve slept with. When they’re exchanging names, he says his name is James, and she’s like, oh, sorry, that won’t do I already have one of those. And so then the relationship is she calls him by his last name, which is Carey for the duration of the relationship. And he is like, incredibly, a line that James Devlin says about him, which is, that man would walk over hot coals for you, but he won’t commit to lunch plans. Like he genuinely, he feels such a deep emotional connection with Rachel, and they have an enormous sexual chemistry. But he’s also like, he just cannot like get it together. Like he cannot attend work on time. He cannot charge his phone, not even answer his text messages. Like he cannot keep the thing charged. It’s just like, it’s all just like a mess. Like, I think it’d be more like a contemporary character. He’d probably get diagnosed ADHD or something and be on Ritalin and he like would be great, but this is 2010. So he doesn’t have that. Rachel’s kind of perspective on him is that like, he must be like, she’s trying to like make him into Mr. Big in her head. Like she’s trying to be like, Oh, he’s a commitmentphobe and he’s cold and he’s distant. When actually he’s not that cold or distant. He’s just a bit of a like, he’s kind of can’t get it together for all of his sort of shortcomings with that. He’s just very silly, a very silly guy who adores his clever girlfriend. He’s probably a little childlike for his age. He’s kind of a Peter Pan figure. But he ultimately is, is very good hearted. And I really enjoyed writing and because like all the men I’ve ever loved have not been Mr. Rochester types or Mr. Darcy types, they’ve been like silly weirdos, and I had so much fun on the page with him.

It really feels so much more natural than these. Like, I just think like, I read some of these books out there with these, like super, super tall, dark and handsome strangers that, you know, come out of nowhere and sweep you off your feet. And I’m like, I don’t know, anyone who’s ever actually experienced that.

Oh, totally. It’s like, you know, his eyes crinkle when he smiles and is sort of the perfect tan thing. And like he’s distant at first, but then immediately he reveals his childhood trauma, and then he’s perfect.

And maybe he’s a secret billionaire and his father left him some sort of company, but it’s always like, No, this is just like a nice guy who’s got his own problems, but he cares. And it’s like, well, when you’re 20, what else do you want? I mean, you just want someone to care and be interested.

And he’s just like, obsessed with her. I think what I love about Rachel is that, you know, she kind of, she thinks of herself as kind of a heifer, you know, she’s sort of, she’s six foot tall. She’s like, a good, she’s a good fine build of a woman, as my grandfather would say, which is like, it’s a tough thing all the time. But it’s particularly tough in 2009, when like, you know, size zero is happening and sort of, he just, he says to her at one point, where she’s like, you have a body like Wonder Woman, like shut up, like she is his greatest fantasy. And like, he’s always just like, following her from room to room, putting his hand up her skirt and telling her she’s a genius, like, it’s kind of the ultimate fantasy really doesn’t matter that he doesn’t shower, and he doesn’t change his sheets.

She’s just looking for someone to like, take her seriously and to actually see her as someone that has a worth or value. And she’s sort of floundering looking for this way to prove that she has these things. And he can give that to her.

Yeah, I just love him. I think he’s great.

But my, my other favorite, like, I guess favorite is maybe the wrong word, but that maybe people wouldn’t agree with me on the I would be most curious as I really love Deenie, okay. Because I feel bad for her in so many ways, because she just seems so helpless at so many times. But yet, she somehow has this, like, the dream, which is the career in the arts that everyone wants at this point. But you know, so few people can get it and she doesn’t maybe come by it in the most like self-worth kind of way. I mean, maybe it’s kind of handed to her.

But what I like about Deenie is, as she’s kind of she you know, the thing about it’s hard to get a job in publishing anywhere like everywhere. But in Ireland, it’s particularly hard to get any kind of job in the arts. And Deenie is like a senior editor at a very respected publisher at publishing house. She’s clearly very good at her job. She’s incredibly kind. And just a very like a sweet hang. You know, she’s like not, I think there’s a temptation when you’re writing these kinds of older impressive women in books who are like supposed to be mentors to the kind of the younger woman that they’re like, very distant or brash, or whatever. But like, she Deenie is like incredibly sweet and just really, and it’s almost like she’s almost, she’s so convinced of her own good intentions, that she has enormous blind spots. One of them being that her husband is bisexual, I think, really, although he rather pretentiously refers to himself as ambidextrous, of course, and because aghast to have like a different guy reason. Her husband is cheating on her and the, but also she hired Rachel to be her intern. And then she upgrades her to being her assistant, because Rachel is, you know, highly competent person. And she never really pays Rachel, you know, so she’s kind of, it’s weird, because she living in this world in publishing, where most people who start off have gotten the kind of start that she has got it, like, you know, through she so she’s the daughter of quite a famous poet. And so she has this kind of blue blooded, intelligentsia thing running through her. And so there’s this kind of assumption that everybody at a junior level is kind of gotten money in the family or connections or whatever. She’s working in an industry where it’s really failing, like book sales are down book shops are closing, the Kindle is coming. It’s really hard to get a start. So she thinks just by giving Rachel any kind of establish, she’s being very generous, but actually she is exploiting Rachel’s labor, but they never have a conversation about this. And so the way they work their relationship is a sort of Deenie gives her these opportunities that feel like a lot, but actually don’t amount to much. And Rachel casually steals from Deenie. Just like little things

Just pops in the bathroom. And you know, yeah. takes a couple of the cosmetics. Yeah, I mean, those are the moments where I was like, that’s such a bad idea. But it’s also like such a 20 year old, like thing to do, like she won’t notice. And whether she does or doesn’t, you know, it’s such a, like, easy way for Rachel to just feel like she’s got that little bit of control in that situation that is so completely out of her control.

Completely. Yeah, yeah. And it’s, it becomes this thing where, like, they’re sort of friends to her in a way, you know, like, she sees James’s sort of covert boyfriend and Deenie’s kind of employer, but kind of not theirs. They’re in their 30s and 40s. So that, you know, it’s like, the lines get very blurry, which is where the drama ensues. And certainly, it’s so hard. Well, it sounds like we’re talking about his book, this book is about nothing. But is the plot is so twisty, that you kind of need to keep it a secret.

It’s truly one of those things that I was so glad I didn’t know, really anything when I started other than just what you can get from, from like, hearing some of my coworkers who had already read it, like talk about it here and there. And I was like, Nope, I don’t want to hear anything else. Because I just need to experience it. And by the time I got to the end, I was like, Okay, well, I don’t know how I’m gonna tell anyone of what this is about. But I’m just going to tell everyone, they have to read it.

Well, that’s great. Thank you.

Do you feel like this is an Irish story, do you because this is so like, geographically tied to what was going on in this time? Obviously, it’s very relatable for people during, you know, similar age to this at any point. But there is so much into this that feels locked to this time in this place.

Yeah, it’s funny, because, I mean, it’s what they tell you over and over again, in publishing, which is that the, the universal is found in the hyper specific, and this, I think, is the most specific book I’ve ever written. And it’s funny, because when I wrote my first novel, in 2016, the main character, it was like very much written to be like a modern fable, almost, it was like, a gothic fairy tale, but set in the world of advertising. And the character was sort of like, an every woman to the point where I don’t think I ever stated where her hometown was, you know, and I think that thought was fine for that book. But I remember part of me thinking that, like she had the main character was British working in London. And I remember feeling like, Oh, I’m just going to keep my options open or something. And in a sense of being like, okay, you know, it’s sort of she’s easy to relate to every woman and whatever. But as I’ve continued in my career, and found more kind of confidence and gotten more and more specific about the kind of place that I’m from, I’ve been like, oh, it’s actually the more specific you are about something, the more relatable people find it, which I think we know that going into fiction, but I think it takes trial and error to truly believe it and to practice it. And so this is such, it is such a specifically Irish story, not only is it dealing with the 2008 financial crash and how it hit Ireland, specifically, but also it’s dealing with a country that, you know, gay marriage was only made legal in 2015 and the homosexual acts, I think they’re termed in law was illegal until 1987, the last Magdalene laundry, which was a institution that imprisoned mostly young women for the crimes of sex outside of marriage, and profited from them, the last one of those closed in ’96, abortion was illegal until three years ago. It’s a country that has a very deep conservative right-wing history, that has changed very quickly in the last few years. And what was so fascinating about this being my first adult novel than published in the US is that I deal with a lot of these things, I deal with in sort of political landscape of Ireland and the shift that was happening beginning to happen during the setting of this book, where it was going from an extremely right wing place to be more of a left wing place. And I sold this in America, and it was like a Roe v Wade being overturned the week that I sold it and I remember writing a letter to Jenny, my commissioning editor and being like, I’m just so sorry. I’m really, really sorry. But like, If I’ve learned anything from being from an incredibly right-wing country, it’s that the kind of the rage it fosters in people. It’s like this like strong vein that runs through the entire country and then it just bursts open. And when it bursts open, these incredible people emerge, these incredible stories emerge. Like I it feels really weird to be from a country that is like, quote, unquote, having a moment, you know, like, but that moment has been like the accrual of many, many moments of feeling like you don’t matter are feeling like your country doesn’t hear you. And I hope that this period that the US is going through right now is not as long as the one that that Ireland went through. But I hope that the mineral vein that bursts out of it is beautiful and triumphant. And yeah, and so in answer to your question, like, yes, it’s a very Irish story.

I think it’ll work so well for sort of the maybe older Gen Z, younger millennials who didn’t quite experience this period of time, but we’re coming sort of right after it and sort of looking to see what’s coming next for them. I know you’ve written YA, like some of your most popular books here in the US or your YA series, which, you know, some of those readers are going to be quickly transitioning towards The Rachel Incident. And so they’ll sort of be able to move from that space with you into this next one, and sort of see what’s on the horizon for them, which is an exciting thing to get to sort of bridge that gap between the two, does it feel very different? I mean, when you write for one versus the other, do you feel like you’re writing from a very different place? Or is it all just coming sort of, from the same thing?

What’s interesting, I think I’m writing YA as I mentioned, I wrote two novels. And then I spent sort of four years doing that trilogy, or five years, and it taught me so much about writing it was because like, the way that trilogies have to be published is that you really want to get them all on the shelves, while the original generation is still enjoying them. Because like, what you enjoy when you’re 13 may not be what you enjoy at 17. In fact, it almost never is. Writing that much material in such a short amount of time. It was like a kind of a writing bootcamp, it was almost like doing an MFA that you get paid to do. Because it’s like, you cannot write good YA unless you have like, incredibly strong and deep characters. And when you’re spending three books with the same sort of five or six characters, the kind of motivations and the nuances and whatever, they have to be so much deeper than a character that you’re just with for one book, which was my, you know, experience of the two other adult novels. And so I think in terms of like, developing characters that have very deep histories and psychologies, it sort of came to me much quicker with Rachel. And also, it’s like, if you’re writing three books of have sort of fantasy, you have to have big plots, like big, big plots that like interweave and called back and, and sort of emerge at just the right time. And so those books really taught me how to do that. And so I felt like I took everything I learned from writing that trilogy, and then put it into a very contemporary, hyper realistic novel, which is The Rachel Incident. I guess the reason I point that out is because I’ve definitely had, I would never get it from a Barnes and Noble interviewer because there you guys have been amazing about my books, but definitely, I’ve had interviewers be like, okay, so you took a break to do that, all that stuff for I assume money, and now you’re back to make your art, is that correct? And it’s like, no, it’s all the art, you know, it’s a whole. It’s all part of, you know, what I want to explore and discuss as a writer, and I feel like, yeah, it really taught me. It was weird that writing something so commercial, it taught me how to be a better literary writer.

If there’s anything that, we’re seeing in this renaissance of young adult literature, I mean, young adult literature is so different now than when I was young. I don’t know how anyone would say it’s not just as you know, based in art as any other literary fiction. I mean, some of these plots that come out of young adult literature are incredible. And these authors are incredible as well. And there’s such a different set of expectations, when you’re writing for young people, you have to have a different mindset when you’re writing for young people than when you’re writing for adults who you feel like okay, you can make these decisions on based on your own experiences. But when you’re writing for young people, they’re still learning and growing. And you kind of have to treat them a little differently than you would an adult audience.

Absolutely. And also it’s like young people are inherently political, I think because everyone’s like, Oh, wow, these new Gen Zs, they’re so political on Tik Tok or whatever. And, you know, it’s I think that is the state of being 15 is that you are learning really quickly about all the things that are wrong with the world and you still can’t fit and you’re sort of not hardened or cynical yet. So you’re still so you have so much faith in the ability for change and all that kind of stuff and they want to read like, yes, magical fantasy plotlines, but they also want to read like, political plot lines. And that’s why they love fantasy so much. Because fantasy and sci fi are great places to explore political mechanics and sort of want why the world is certain ways. And they really want to read about things that are like, here’s the macro political thing. And here’s the micro of how this person is being affected. And like, definitely, you see that in The Rachel Incident, as well. I think it could easily be shared with young adult book, you know, I got some swearing, but yeah.

A light edit for content But that’s such a like, I mean, those two things I don’t think they can be you can’t split them up the sort of literature for adults and literature for young people. It’s, we’ve already read both. I mean, so many people, like when I was working in bookstores, they’d come in and be like, you know, people in their 30s and 40s. They’d be like, is it embarrassing to ask for the YA section? I was like, no, please let like read what you want.

Totally. I’m increasingly thinking that like, YA is no longer a age range, but a genre definer. It’s as valid the genre of sci fi or fantasy or crime, or whatever. It refers to, yes, the age of the characters, but also just a sort of fluidity and a sort of set of expectations that I think is very common to genre, you know,

Now, it’s definitely much different. I wonder sometimes, oh, my God, if I would have had these books when I was younger, like, imagine I would never would have left to the library, the bookstore in my room, any of it?

Yeah. Oh, it’s yeah, it’s incredible. I’m so proud to be a YA author.

I think that there’s so much merit to be had in that in that genre and that field, still, there’s a lot more to be seen from so many authors. It’s exciting. Do you miss the world of The Rachel Incident? Do you miss these characters now that you’ve finished? And I mean, you still get to talk about them? Because yeah, that’s publicity for the book. But do you miss sort of sitting in that world with them? Or you’re like, that was that was enough?

I do miss them. You know, I do. But I think what’s lovely is that so many of the characters were drawn from like that, like, that James Devlin was he was drawn from my friend Ryan. And when I was writing the book, I don’t think I could have really done it without either his encouragement or his approval. And so I have these people in my life, who I can talk to you about this book, and it still is real for us. And we’re like, oh, that’s so James kind of thing or whatever. And I do, I do miss them. And often when I see like, you know, for example, like, I’m a big fan of, you know, Matt Rogers and they’re, you know, young gay men working in comedy, who are mostly based in New York and like, Oh, I bet. I bet James is friends with them. And the thing I like, I they, these characters are very real to me. And I do like thinking about what they’d be up to. And, yeah, I mean, I don’t think it’s very literary to do sequels. And I don’t think there’s much space for a sequel, but I would love to know, yeah, I would love to see how they’re getting on, you know?

Yeah. Yeah, I don’t see a sequel necessarily. And like, in some ways, you’re also like, I don’t want to sequel because I want to just like imagine what I think the characters are doing now, but I definitely was like, I just hope they’re all doing well. Like, yeah, right. Like, you can imagine all the things they’re like getting up to up here like and they’re still making mistakes. You can also imagine that none of them are out there. Like just getting it all perfect. But yeah, but they’re having a good time. I think one of my favorite questions to ask of course, is who are the Caroline O’Donoghue literary influences, who are some of the authors that have made your writing what it is now?

Oh, wow, what a great question. I would say Maeve Binchy is the huge one for me. I actually came to her books quite late. I read Circle of Friends. Is she a big deal over in the US? Okay, great. When I was kind of growing up she was like very much books that your grandmother would read. You know, my grandmother had all of them and the way they were packaged was definitely like that always be like a picture of a rocking chair with a blanket over it next to a hearth and it’s like, I’m not reading that. And then I had to read it for on my podcast, Sentimental Garbage. I read Circle of Friends. And that is a 700 page book about just like a bunch of people going to university in the 60s in Dublin. And it’s saying, just so beautiful and so funny. And like, it really was one of those books where I was like, oh my god, this is the kind of book I should be writing and definitely, I think read The Rachel Incident owes a lot to Circle of Friends. So she’s a huge, huge influence on me. Another big influence on this book was Brother of the More Famous Jack by Barbara Trapido, which is a little bit of a I don’t know if it’s big over there. Again, I have no idea what American bookstores look like because I’ve only been in one ever, which is a kind of very like another sort of like a story about a woman who falls in love with like two brothers from the same family. And it’s another book that’s been told, from the perspective of like somebody who’s looking back and being like, God, I was an idiot, but didn’t I have great legs? And which is a perspective I love. But like, I also get a lot of inspiration from like, I think the one of the books that made me want to be a writer with like, Flowers in the Attic, you know, because I was, I remember reading it and being like, you can just put anything in a book, you know, and like, wow, you can you can put anything in there. And it doesn’t matter how twisted it is, you can do it. You know, that’s, that was a huge realization. For me. When I was Rachel’s age, I was obsessed with Haruki Murakami, which was definitely like a cool girl thing of the time to be in Academy. But I still love those books. I still think like Kafka on the Shore is wonderful. And Dance Dance Dance is wonderful. So yeah, at the moment, my big influence is I’m kind of reading through Meg Wolitzer. I’m very like, Where have you been on my life lady? Like, I can’t believe it’s taking me so long to get to her.

Sometimes that’s the fun that was when you’re like, Wait, I’ve just discovered someone and they’ve got several books that I can like, oh, blow through. And it just like fits right where you are in that moment?

I mean, totally. I know that publishing is obsessed with like, debuts and like, can you believe this? 17 year old she wrote like a whole thing about the Crimean War like, and you’re like, Wow, that was crazy. And like, either, okay, half the time, I’m saying this as somebody who’s currently being marketed as a debut author in the US, because sure, because if my debut adult in the US, but most of the time, a debut is fairly disappointing, because they haven’t learned how to do it yet. And if they have learned how to do it yet, it’s because they did an MFA program, and somebody was kind of looking over their shoulder and you can sort of tell, and that’s not me, you know, trying to poopoo debut writers. I just think that, like, we’re so obsessed with them as an industry that like sometimes you forget that like, oh, there are people who’ve been doing this for decades, who have like a whole shelf of books. And when you discover those people that you love, you’re like, oh, wow, is all these treats for me. Like I think what was great about you know, Gabrielle Zevin, getting her flowers sort of 10 years into her career is that like, wow, Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow is great and now we can read like AJ Fikry and like, go back into her like, right, it’s like, amazing.

The joys of, sort of, like delving into these authors is there’s always more, there’s always someone else, there’s always another thing. And it’s just, it never ends. You don’t have a book for the rest of your life. There’s always going to be another book.

Totally I just, I just wish more publishing breakthrough success stories looks like Gabrielle Zevin’s, you know, where it’s like, wow, this person wrote a bunch of books and this one is really broken through but look at all these other ones, you know, right. I like saying we’d like Taylor Jenkins Reid. It’s like she broke through and like look at all these other ones. And we’re getting more and more of that. And I think the reason we’re getting more and more about lately is because of Tik Tok.

All you need is that one influencer, that one bookseller the one to find your book and to put it in the hands of as many people as they can.

I would pay any amount of money to see what Madeline Miller’s royalty statements look like, you know, because like, Song of Achilles, I remember reading that book in like 2014 and then being a great book and then like kind of forgetting about it, and then suddenly Tik Tok is like, have you heard? Yeah, sold that book for like, what? 15,000 pounds probably. And now she’s like rolling in it.

The industry is doing some very new and exciting things right now through social media. It’s, yeah, it’s something to watch for sure.

Great. And what I love about it is that I don’t I think there are authors who are doing great stuff on Tik Tok and with social media, but I think for the most part, it’s none of our business. You know, it’s like sure if the children find you that children find you.

Don’t read the reviews and don’t search yourself on Tik Tok.

I’m searching myself on Tik Tok.

You’re like, oh, no, I’m looking every day.

Oh, no, I’m definitely popping in because just because the YA videos they make are so funny. II. That’s

true. It’s it’s good content.

I could not watch it. It’s too good. But I more think that it’s like, it’s not for me to try and make videos to try and hack the teens into thinking like my book is blank. So it’s up to the it’s up to the accurate Yeah.

Absolutely. All right. My last question. I always end on this and some people’s favorite and some people’s least favorite is what’s next? Do you have anything that you want to tell us about coming in the future?

Yeah, it’s a massive gear change. So if you like The Rachel Incident, this has nothing to do with that. So I it’s weird. I seem to have fallen into this pattern with writing where I write one book that’s, you know, incredibly magical, fantasy, outlandish and imaginative. And then I write one incredibly realistic book that’s about real-world characters. And so I have The Rachel Incident. Now I’m my next book, which I am still waiting for my first round of feedback on my publisher, is called Skip Shock. It’s my first fantasy books take place completely in an alternative world, which is like the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do. It’s you know, you have to come up with religion and currency and what do they eat? And how did they know that? I won’t go into it in huge detail right now, but I’m really excited. It’s very ambitious and I hope people like it.

I’m sure they will. I can’t wait for that. Because basically after these books, I’m ready to read anything you write. Can’t wait. Thank you so much for this conversation today. I can’t wait for everyone to get The Rachel Incident and to find out all of the drama that these characters got to.

To find out what the incident is.

Thank you so much. This has been great.

Thank you. This is wonderful.

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