Poured Over Double Shot: Jamel Brinkley and Khashayar J. Khabushani

By Jenna Seery / August 5, 2023 at 6:00 am

I Will Greet the Sun Again by Khashayar J. Khabushani is the story of a young Iranian American boy growing up in the San Fernando Valley with his brothers. With basketball, his family and the influences around him, he begins to understand his identity. Khabushani joins us to talk about the different realities within L.A., the rewriting process, what he learned as a teacher and more.

With ten rich and beautifully crafted stories, Jamel Brinkley’s collection Witness shows a glimpse of life for people in pivotal times against the backdrop of New York City. Brinkley joins us to talk about the importance of short stories as an art form, his writing process, ghost stories and more.

Listen in as these authors speak separately with Miwa Messer, host of Poured Over.

This episode of Poured Over was hosted by Miwa Messer and mixed by Harry Liang.         

Featured Books (Episode):
I Will Greet the Sun Again by Khashayar J. Khabushani
Witness by Jamel Brinkley
Ordinary Notes by Christina Sharpe
Stay True by Hua Hsu
A Lucky Man by Jamel Brinkley
I Am Not Your Negro by James Baldwin

Full Episode Transcript

Miwa Messer

I’m Miwa Messer, producer and host of Poured Over and I have to tell you that I’m wildly in love with I Will Greet the Sun Again. And I know you guys have heard me say this on the show before but Justin Torres, We the Animals also a fan. This book may remind you a little bit of We the Animals, mega Majumder also a fan Javier Zamora, the author of Solito. Also a fan of Caleb Azumah Nelson, also a fan, so I’m not alone. In my love for Khashayar J Khabushani’s, I Will Greet the Sun Again. And I gotta tell you, dude, for a guy from the 818, you have written the quintessential LA novel, and there are gonna be some people who are just like, What are you talking about? But I’m going to ask you to introduce the book, and we’ll go from there.

Khashayar J Khabushani

Thank you, Miwa. Well, I, the way I’ve been describing this book is, it’s a very, for me, it’s a very quiet book, it deals with with big themes of, of home of, of the aspera of trauma. But to your point, it takes place in the valley, which is in Los Angeles, and in particular takes place in Canoga Park, which is one of the many neighborhoods in the San Fernando Valley. And the way I’ve been thinking about this book, because it also speaks to my experiences growing up in the valley, which is that there is everything that happens. And yet there is nothing for the narrator seemingly nothing that is happening. Long days, scorching sun, dry, he, I think that’s even the line from the book we do, we’re doing nothing at all. And yet everything is happening in our lives. So for readers, if they’re interested in that, I would say, please do read if you’re interested in having everything that happened and nothing at all.

But it’s really important, because these are kids who are living life in translation as well. Life is not easy for their parents. And I’m not just Ks, K is one of three brothers, Shawn and Justin, and K. And we’re gonna get to K in a second. But you know, their parents are really trying to make the American dream work. And then there’s Johnny, whose parents have a complicated story. And then there’s Christian, all of these kids have parents with complicated lives. And one of the things I love about what have you said about your novel is that it’s for all of the kids who grew up in apartments, who had to make their own breakfast and lunch and dinner. So you’re writing about class, you’re writing about privilege, you’re writing about basketball too.

LA, basketball, you said it, you said it.

We have to talk about basketball. But here all of these boys coming of age in very different ways, in the 1990s. And I gotta ask why you chose the 90s. Because you my friend, were not around for much. You were a toddler for much.

I will say and maybe there’s like some neurologists or whatever’s psychiatrist that will dispute but my first memory very vivid is what I was two, which was the Northridge earthquake, which was devastated. That would have been okay, before, and I think in a way, I think that’s what I was like, I do remember and so if, you know, I’m like, Well, let me set that in that time were at kind of bumped up K’s age where he would be sort of, quote, unquote, coming of age, in the early 90s. And, you know, and just the more like, boring No, I think I was I was alive for the transition of pre not just social media, but like, obviously, you know, the iPhone, when it was a with that would have been 2017 It really changed everything. And I wanted to set a story, pre all of that when you had to, like, call your buddy be like, the bus is gonna drop me off at 3:15 at the KFC, you know, and really, to me, romantic about that didn’t feel very romantic at the time. But now looking back, it feels very romantic.

There was much more serendipity to it, there was much more chance of getting lost and finding something that you weren’t planning on finding and sometimes that included you, right, like I love these brothers. I love Shawn, I love Justin. I love Carrie. And I am delighted that they are not my brothers because I think I would not have survived like they are boys, man.

If you’re happy you’re not your brothers. Be glad they’re not your sons. Like when I look at my mom and you did it put yourself through school like oh my god.

Yep. But I love these guys. And they are I mean Shawn is the basketball player who’s a little too short to play college ball but he ends up like making space for himself. Justin has an arc that is wholly his and we may touch on it a little bit but I feel like his journey ends in a little bit of a spoiler. So we’re gonna dance around that a little bit but Justin, he’s kind of who I expected him to be for a middle child, maybe I’m reading. And then K, who’s our guy, he’s our guide through this whole thing. You know, this kid. And part of what I’m wondering is when the book started for you, because you are a very physical writer. And by that, I mean, there’s a scene where the boys are taken to the beach by their parents, and like, just the immediacy of it and little boys playing at the beach and being free of the valley and all this other stuff. I mean, people obviously, many people think immediately the beach when they think of Los Angeles, and that’s not a lot of people’s experience.

Thank you for saying that. Because I think even for me, there’s like, when we hear Los Angeles to your point, we think we think now do we think Malibu, we think ocean and of course, we think Hollywood part of the valley that I grew up in that it was you might as well have been taking a family trip to a different state, a different city, when you were able to go to the beach is a very novel experience, both for me and of course, for the characters. So I appreciate you pointing to that. Because I think to this very day, I’m still trying to understand like, in some I’m back in Los Angeles, what my relationship with that places and what it means to me what I have access to what I don’t have access to.

I think too, it’s really hard for people who aren’t from LA, certainly to understand sort of the scope of the valley, right? Like, it’s much more than the Galleria, okay, like straight up. It’s not just that mall from that Moon Unit Zappa song. It’s one of the largest Chinese American populations actually, Monterey Park, man like that is like, the biggest suburban Chinatown there is. And it’s really well established. And there’s a whole Armenian community. And there’s, like, I mean, there’s so much in the valley. And yet, oftentimes, I think of sort of this washed out 70s image, right, where everything’s dry and brown, and you know, swimming pools are empty, and kids are skating in them. Like, that’s what I think of when I think of the valley. And it’s so much more complex, in so many ways. So when I saw that you had sent your novel there, I was like, Okay, I’ll follow you. Because I mean, there is a very large Iranian American population sort of more towards Beverly Hills and Beverly adjacent, you know, all of that Beverly Hills adjacency.

Well, you’re bringing up a good point, because there are all these identities and sub identities in Los Angeles, but also for K in this family, and you highlight yet another one, which is I remember when I would tell others and maybe even adults, like, Yeah, I’m, I’m Iranian. I live in the valley. They’re like, Oh, great. You have you have a robust community, what you’re pointing to, especially on the west side, and Iranian Jewish community, we’re Muslim, and I always longed to be a part of it. And but you know, for political and class reasons, it just wasn’t quite an option. And there’s always a kind of a heartbreak for me, the Iranian Muslim community is present in Los Angeles, but much smaller in comparison to the Iranian Jewish community.

Part of what you’re doing too, though, you bounce into Iran, actually, in the 90s.

I can’t believe they let me do that. I was like, I was so excited to put a boy in Iran.

Dude, it’s so good. I mean, honestly, some terrible things happen. And I’m not making light of that. But like the fact that you have a full quarter of this book. And when I realized what K’s dad was doing, by taking the boys, I was just like, wait, wait. But it’s pre 9/11. Flying was a totally different thing. He’s dad, he’s got their passports.

You bring up such a good point. And that that goes back to your question, too, of like, why set it in that era, because I remember kind of telling this, you go through therapy, do therapy to up to your eyeballs, blah, blah, blah. And I remember my therapist mentioning like, there’s no way a father like today, I guess. The mother has to be, at least on the American side, and Mother has to be present back then just like, Nope, this is what I’m doing.

There’s paperwork now. Whereas before, I mean, I remember my parents taking us to the airport in Boston so we could watch planes take off and land, we were easily entertained children we weren’t allowed to watch television, is it any wonder that I ended up a bookseller but I still I you know, I’m one of those people who still lives to fly and flying is not it’s just not what it used to be. But I actually I quite enjoy being on the plane and I have no problems entertaining myself. So if the Wi Fi goes down on the plane, I’m okay. Like I’m good. But this idea to have this sort of freedom that these kids have because even though their parents are doing the best they can, let’s say, parents are doing this, they can, these boys have an incredible amount of freedom. And I think kids today don’t have that freedom of movement the way you are, I would have, you know, in an earlier age as it were, and I think that’s really important to stress because these boys are figuring out how to be boys. Like, they really kind of don’t get their mom, they love her, but they don’t get her. They know, they super don’t get her.

I don’t think she gets fully in this instance. Because, you know, here’s somebody that has left, her country is married to someone much older than her is living in a foreign land. And I think in some ways, at least, in this part, like I don’t think she fully gets what’s happening. There’s a lot of, you know, this is a language that K uses in the book, but I think as sort of somebody reading is like, oh, there’s a lot of dissociation happening, you know, and rightfully so she’s got as much, you know, on her plate as, as the boys do. So, yeah, I think all of them are trying to sort of, there’s just like a lot of experimentation. And I don’t, I don’t mean to use that word lightly. I mean, that like, in a very profound sense of, let’s find ourselves, whatever that may look like, or whatever that made me.

And each of the brothers really do. And that, like, they each have an arc. And I appreciate that, because no one sort of gets, you know, especially when you’ve got three characters who are so different, who are so full of life who have very different journeys in the same family, right. Like, we should never assume that siblings had the same experience.

Well, you bring up such a good point. I know many people can relate to this who have siblings. Like, it’s so astounding to me, you know, three boys, three girls are mixtures of whatever grew up in the same household. And then 20 years later, they all recount what happened in that house very differently, even though they were, you know, going through the same things, etc, etc. And to me, you know, sometimes when I look back at the story, and I look at K, I wonder as like, it’s this kind of, I know, it’s funny, because I feel this, like, reverse shame for giving the brothers and maybe even other characters like their own arc, because I know like, typically, like in a first person coming of age novel, like it’s about that narrator that protagonist is very, but I just couldn’t, I just loved him so much. These characters, I couldn’t help but like, be equally invested in them as I am in in K.

Yeah, and I’m gonna poke at you. Shame is a really interesting word choice. And I’m gonna poke at you for a second because why not just write the thing you wanted to read? Right? That is a very fundamental piece of advice. That writers who are just starting out get from a lot of difference. I mean, famously, Toni Morrison, right, I wrote the novel I wanted to read, like, this is just such an LA book. So many ways, like the sort of slightly feral children, the relentless heat, kind of I think it was Henry Hoke who just said this the other day on the show, that he felt like he didn’t have a center when he moved to LA. And LA is one of those places where you need to have a center and like, clearly the valley is your center, like K town is my center. I live in a very specific piece of K town that abuts a lot of different other communities. And I just that to me, is LA, right, like the cacophony of the language and you know, what I see in my bonds, and you know, all of that stuff.

Like, I know, there’s the there’s that adage, like if you can make it in New York, you can make it in I think you can make it in LA, you can make it anywhere, because to Henry Hoke’s point like, if you’re not really diligent about absurdities, the catchphrase, but like establishing community map, you’re absolutely screwed. Whereas in New York, there’s like so because it’s so compact, and you don’t need a car, blah, blah, blah, there’s a lot more opportunity to even if you’re not even engaging with people in a very substantial way, for me, at least in my time there. Just seeing people being around bodies constantly, there’s a lot of work that that does for you, especially if that’s something that’s really important to you.

I want to talk about craft for a second because this is your first novel, it is very assured. And you also give Justin the middle brother Justin a line that he says to Kay his little brother, that’s a little bit further on in the book. And he says you have to fall in love with the thing that’s been right in front of you. And I sort of feel like that’s your relationship with writing that this has always been there. But you took a minute you were teaching before you went and got your MFA. And then it was Heidi Julavits, who was one of your professors at Columbia who was like, well, actually, you can use fiction, to tell the truth. You don’t have to write nonfiction to be able to tell the truth, and I want to take all of those points. and start talking about how you became a novelist because clearly, there’s a lot that went into this book. I mean, you’re wrestling with lots of big ideas and big themes and characters that some of whom are going to love and some we would like to punch in the throat. But I want to talk about you, as the creator of this world and these characters and how we got here. Because I mean, you’re not the first person to have taken a little bit of a detour before an MFA program.

Yeah. When you invoke Heidi Julavits, it gets me I get so emotional about that. Because, you know, that I had many professors in the MFA that were so instrumental and generous, but that, that it was also very serendipitous that I took a class with Heidi Julavits, because she has she teaches in fiction, and I was a nonfiction student. But it just so happened, there was availability, and that and I applied and got accepted to her workshop and, and getting to see it, you know, there’s what she said about the ability, that’s what fiction could do. And something else that she told me that always stuck with me throughout this writing process was allow K to go allow, your narrator to go where he wants to go. And your job as a writer is to, is to stay out of the way of that, because I had my idea of because this novel was so autobiographical. And so many of the things I experienced, I had an idea of how I wanted the story to unravel. But one of the most meaningful things about writing this book is I had the chance to recreate the past and sort of envision what, like, for me kind of been like had some very significant things gone differently. And that’s where, I guess from the from the craft level, like, that’s what brought me to, to fiction, to the novel. And to your point about the detours is I, I was somebody that was like, getting kicked out of class as a young person. I was even in middle school asked to not return at a certain point, because I kept getting into trouble. And there was no world where I would become a writer, at least the way I felt it. And yet, to your point, I was always, even if I wasn’t writing, I was always narrating what was happening. And I don’t know if that’s a coping mechanism for a young person or maybe that’s something that a lot of people who go through trauma can relate to. But once I realized that there has been this voice all along, that’s been soothing and helping me. I wanted to see if it was possible to bring that to the page.

Yeah. And what you just told me as you were telling yourself stories.

I was telling myself stories.

That’s what that is, whatever, whatever device, you want to call that, right? Like, that’s you telling stories, that’s what stories do. It’s a novel about LA where, you know, I’m about to invoke Joan Didion and we tell ourselves stories to live like, there is a reason that line has been tattooed on the back of so many brains, right? Not all Angelenos, but at the same time, like, yeah, you do what you need to end of story is the thing that helps you through like, I cannot begin to imagine how difficult it was to be Muslim in America after 9/11, like it was chaotic. I mean, I remember hearing the stories and I was certainly, you know, I was an adult so I remember so much more than I might have otherwise had I still been in school and whatnot. But it was gruesome to see, to hear and, and people were so cavalier about it.

Well, and now that I look at it back as like an adult and have all the language that we now are afforded. And I don’t want to I certainly do not want to dismiss the gravity of that, but to kind of speak to the novel and to speak to because I was a I was such a young person when 9/11 happened to me. To this day, what I still am grappling with and can’t get over is it was actually amongst loved ones and so Andres and Danny and Marcus and the set like these were all, we were so tight. And then I think it was Wednesday post 9/11 and I go from being best friend to being Osama like that. So it came from the young people too which we pick it up at home of course right but I think we’re supposed to be better than everybody else was like my idea but clearly not.

It was a wild, wild moment in American history and the kind of thing to like I actually will never forget the smell that’s the thing that I still like, not often, but like when it pops, you’re just like, Oh, right. Like when the wildfire smoke was coming down from Canada, it was like, Oh, yeah. It’s really kind of trippy to have that sense of place. And I mean, yeah, you grew up in the valley, but you do capture a lot of the culture. Just about I know, I keep coming back to the basketball stuff. But you’ve got parents with an arranged marriage, you’ve got parents who have struggled in the United States, you’ve got parents who can’t translate themselves to their children, you’ve got a kid, K, who takes away his own name, like, yeah, just call me K, I don’t I, my dad named me after a Persian king, and no one can say my name. And I’m just going to take my own name away.

What do you think about like how violent that is, for a person to like, for a young person to have disorienting to never have, even before they have a trapped chance to introduce themselves or be introduced to the world as who they are. I mean, it’s so names are so primal and important and can be complicated, of course, but to be severed. And I think that’s just one aspect that K is contending with. But of course, like, you take the elevator up, it starts with his father who’s like, also severed himself from so many parts of his past and his identity. And so nobody really stands a chance in this kind of mixture. And one thing that I feel kind of really encouraged by is hearing people talk about how it’s a very helpful book, because as I was writing it, as I, as I think about it, like, and I guess that goes, again, to your point about fiction is, I don’t feel very hopeful about these things. And I’m still contending with them, the sort of aftermath in my in my personal life, but to kind of re-envision something. And to make it more hopeful, I think, for me was like, I guess my life depended on that, like, I needed to have that aspect.

I would have followed you wherever the book was gonna go. Like, straight up, I was just gonna I was in it, you delivered a really hopeful ending and a lot of ways. And, you know, I know I’ve hinted at Justin’s arc, and I’m hoping he’s okay. But that said, it’s still for him, it’s hopeful. Shawn gets a really hopeful arc and K does his thing. It is kind of an open ended bit and I’m wondering if you’re going to come back to K, I sort of feel like you’re not done with him.

What do you think? Do you think I should?

I would, obviously, I do feel like there’s space. And I feel like there’s space for all of the brothers because Shawn gives you a chance to hit, you know, a whole different LA. Justin gives you a whole different America possibly.

And, you know, who we haven’t talked about is the Aunt, who’s like, plays a big role in the boy’s life in the back to their mother. I’m also like, she won’t let me go. Because there’s a lot about her life, that she tells K, but it’s not explicitly told about her life. And I’m just like, where did you find your courage? Like, especially as a woman in Iran, like post, you know, revolution, blah, blah, blah. So, yeah, I’m sort of in the best way right? Or hopes for I’m sort of still haunted to, you know, to answer your question is like, I’m still haunted by these arcs and these characters in these voices.

I just, I think there’s so much more here. Yes, I do want to hear more about the boys Auntie. But I’m really attached to the boys. And I’m really attached to them figuring out I mean, I suppose there’s some familiar elements to an immigrant story here, right? Like, there are some details that are shared no matter what, but these boys are so alive on the page. And they’re so vibrant, and they’re so themselves, and they also beat each other up like little boys do. But there’s something for the past. And so I’m just I’m voting for maybe more about them. But I want to talk about literary influences for a second, because here you are, you’ve had some great teachers without a doubt. Clearly, you’ve been reading around as much as you could. And that’s part of being an MFA student, but it’s also just part of being a person, right? Like, part of how you learn to write is by reading a lot. So let’s talk about literary influences. Let’s talk about some of the writers who also helped make you who you are.

Maybe it was it was, I joke that I’m a closeted poet. I will never even have I don’t think in this lifetime, but the gumption or the guts to sit and say I’m going to compose you know, a line of verse. I don’t understand how we are so fortunate to have poets. I was just listening, so I have Christina Sharp’s Ordinary Notes.

That book, Ordinary Notes is insanely great. That book is so special.

The concision but it like, you know, I know it’s not, you know, a book of poems, but this ability to sit and as economically as possible pack a lifetime of a feelings and thoughts within a few lines. And that to me, so, so Christina Sharp and I’m looking at my book stack here. And if I often turn to poets, Kaveh Akbar, love WS Merwin, I recently read Hua Hsu’s Stay True, which I also loved. And it’s hard to sort of, say this person or that person is a literary influence because I’m such a hungry, such a whore for like, for language, I just need it not because it brings me pleasure because like, literally, I can’t, I don’t stand a chance. I didn’t stand a chance as a, as a young writer to do this thing had I not had people show me like, this is the way it’s done. And so I’m like, constantly borrowing from them, learning from them. And I’m always opening up a new book and seeing where, where it will take me.

I think being able to pull any work apart at the sentence level is impossibly important. And I get really picky about my intention, I am really picky. Like, honestly, I’m okay, if nothing happens, as long as the language is there. Like I don’t, I don’t actually need stuff to happen. Like I really just if the language isn’t there, and I know other people who are like, well, if stuff doesn’t happen, why am I reading? I’m like, well, there is a book for everyone. There genuinely is a book for everyone. I’m just telling you where I come from, and sort of my like, I need to be pulled in to a writer’s POV. And that starts with language for me, and that language and voice are inseparable. I think there are some people who would like to sort of take a exacto knife to that, and I don’t think you can I think every choice a writer makes is ultimately about voice about point of view.

Okay, like if the language is doing what you need and want language to do. You’re okay with the absence of plot?

Yes, I am. But I’m rare. I am rare and there are times where I will pick up something and put it down and pick it up and put it down. I just more than most I will stick with it. What I always need though, is voice. Yeah, so I guess I am saying no, I’m okay. I’m really okay. As long as the language is there, I’m really ok.

I’m right there with you. I’m right there with you. And you and you’re right. Sometimes that means like, yeah, if it’s not like a, you know, plot driven book here, and you’re not like, I have to have to know what happens next. But it’s like, what I love is you can read a few pages, satiate yourself and then come back to it. And it’s more so like the slow burn, which is my favorite reading as well.

So dialogue, also for me, like the way your characters talk is really important.

Isn’t dialogue so embarrassing. It’s so hard.

I guess it’s hard and it should be hard. But the thing is that you just got to read a lot of playwrights. That’s really what it comes down, just read a lot of playwrights and then suddenly it all makes sense. And you know, that’s the only way to explain dialogue. It’s just like, just read a lot of playwrights because it’s all dialogue.

That’s so good. I paid a million dollars for my MFA, and I never got that advice. I got it from you.

Sorry. I think I actually I may have stolen that from someone who did get an MFA but then went to law school afterwards. Long story. I was just like, Okay. I’m just gonna go be a bookseller. Thanks very much. You can you keep doing the school, I’m just a bookseller, and talk about cool stuff with interesting people. But the idea that you were that kid who was bouncing in his chair and did not like school and did not want to be there. I mean, I think that says so much more about the environment than it does about the kid. And I think it’s really easy to lose sight of that. And you taught for a while, right? Like, what ages were you teaching before?

I taught middle school, and I taught in Pacoima. And I was just talking to a friend who I whom I taught with and still works as an educator, and I was talking, I was like, I feel like I was one of the students. I did my best to show up. I was a very good teacher. She was like, Oh, you definitely like were like that, the things that those kids were going through, and what you’ve been like, she’s like, I did see a difference. And so for me that was really meaningful. And I want to say this, because it’s so important in regards to teaching. And it’s something that I’ve shared and that I continue will, which is like, my most important writing instructors, were my students in Pacoima. And specifically, the reason that is, is at the end of the year that they had this assignment where in order to also work on writing, and sort of practice gratitude, there was this sort of cool merging, where, at the end of the year, they were asked to write gratitude letters for the teachers and the leader of, the director of the school, etc, etc. And at that point, I was, you know, we talked about reading, and I was, I was turning to writers who have been sort of critically acclaimed, etc, etc, but use very sophisticated syntax and diction, and etc, etc. And I’m reading these gratitude letters from my students who, you know, 12,13,14 years old, but because of environment and circumstances, a lot of them their reading level is at the second grade, or third grade level. But what I’ll tell you is, as I’m sitting there reading these gratitude letters, because they had the willingness to write in their own voice, and to use the language that they have, I could see and hear each of them. So clearly, as I was reading these letters, I thought, that’s what I want to be able to do. To your point, to me, the most important thing, when you read, whether it’s a letter, whether it’s a novel or poem, it’s like be able to see that voice fly off the page. And it was because of my students who I thought I’m going to really lean into that. And so in the novel, I think that’s, I know, it’s told, you know, through a young person POV, but so I tried to keep the diction really stripped down. And from that allow that voice to really come through.

Yeah, I think that’s hugely important, especially too, for parents, who don’t necessarily like, our kids are not speaking Farsi, right? Like, the boys are not speaking Farsi. And obviously, their parents have learned English, but there’s always that slip. I mean, I grew up in a home with a bilingual parent and also a parent who’s very monolingual. And, you know, I’ve got cousins who are trilingual, I’ve got, you know, and I mean, baby cousins who are like trilingual, and it’s great to see, right, it’s so exciting. And you just kind of gotta keep up with the tiny people, right? But I think there’s something about growing up in translation, right? Like, no matter what you know about your environment, and how you move in that environment, or how you interact with people outside of your home, like, there’s this fundamental act of living in translation. And I do believe it’s an action, right, like living in translation, like you’ve got one foot in one place one foot in another. And it changes the way you see language, it changes the way you see the evolution of language, it’s changes the way you see access to language. Yeah, I know how to diagram a sentence. But do I need to do it on a regular basis? I do not. I’m good. Thanks. Do I know someone with a really cool tattoo of a diagrammed sentence? Yes, I do. Okay, thanks. I’m glad I learned how to do it. But you know, I do think grammar is something that can be sort of used as a cultural, not teaching kids to interact with words and language in a way that resonates with them, then what are we doing? You know, we’re not walking around sounding like pilgrims. And I think it’s kind of great to know that your novel is grounded in 12- and 13-year-olds who are like, well, let me explain to you what my world looks like because I think you’re full of it. And I you know, when you look at like the explosion of YA literature, what’s happening in Middle graders, and all that kind of stuff, it’s like, well, if you’re going to build a new generation of readers, you can’t all give them Thoreau and Wadsworth and be like, Oh, go to town, tiny person. That’s, that’s

Yeah. And I’m really this is like, you know, a very kind of idealistic dream of mine. But when I imagine, you know, my students from Pacoima or students across Los Angeles, you know, if they come across this book, what I didn’t want to happen is to have a novel that deals with themes and experiences that they are dealing with on an everyday basis, but it’s locked in some text that is unavailable to them now if they want to grow up and study and, as you said diagram sentences and read and read. Amazing I love that shit too. However in the meantime, as like a vehicle to get there, I wanted them to be like, Yeah, you, you can hear yourself in this and that and perhaps, I mean, that’s what, as we talked about with animals like the rhythm of those boys, I was like, Oh, you’re allowed you can do that. It’s like I was a vehicle for me like that was that book was like a Bible for me during, during when I was living in New York. And so in a way I wanted even if kiddos don’t go on to become writers, I think to be able to see themselves like you point out to have yours quote, yeah, to be able to see themselves reflected. I think it’s so important.

It so matters. I mean, Caleb Azumah Nelson has said this about Zadie Smith’s NW is like, that’s the book that said, like, now he grew up in a different part of London, but he was just like, oh, no, I can do this. And I love the idea that some kid is going to pick up your novel and just be like, Oh, I recognize this.

I opened my door, they’re in the same apartment complex. They’re like, they’re probably still hanging on the staircase, right?

I mean, all of that basketball at one point I mean, it felt like you were sort of referencing Kwame Alexander’s middle grade books, there’s a moment where one of the brothers passes another book. And I’m like, Oh, could be, or maybe it’s just totally made up. But whatever. But the idea that the boys are connecting, not just physically right, not just through basketball, not just through riding their bikes, not just through, you know, their parental situation, because they’re trying to figure out their parents as well. But the idea that they’re sort of passing books, I have one point Siddhartha makes an appearance.. Does everyone I mean, seriously, it’s like Siddhartha, The Basketball Diaries. Like there’s always something where you’re like, Oh, yeah. It’s a rite of passage. No, seriously, there are certain books, right? There are certain books when you read them when you’re like, 18 years old. And it’s like, that’s the best thing you’ve ever read in your life. Yeah, go back later. And you’re like, Oh, apparently, I knew nothing and you just kind of your eyes get really big. Oh, that was a poor choice. But hey, now I know better. And I mean, I love the idea that our reading tastes and our habits and all this can evolve, right? Who’s speaking to us and how?

And well, it’s so like, with that example, I think, to me, it’s, you know, you can fill in the blank, I think, particularly what you mentioned about Siddhartha and with just, I think, the fact that there is a book that he turns to that sort of, again, I don’t want to give too much away about his character, but that just I’ll say, like, divert his attention to something a little less harmful, and suddenly to kind of hone him in I think, as K seeing that there’s an admiration when he’s like, you found something, I need to find something now.

Yeah, and I that is, again, I know I said this earlier in the show. But there is a book for everyone, right? Like, it may not be the same. But everyone should just read Christina Sharp’s, Ordinary Notes. But that’s just everyone should just get everyone should read them. But everyone should read, I Will Greet the Sun Again. But at the same time, like I genuinely believe that if you can just keep an open mind and keep an open heart there, there will be a book that you will connect with, and it might not be the one that you’re expecting. And that’s part of what I love. I mean, I came to Los Angeles you grew up there, I did not. And it is a huge piece of my world and has been for, you know, a couple of decades at this point more than but, like my life in LA, I recognize parts of it in this novel, and you know, I have nothing to do with these children. It’s just but it’s there’s this sense of LA that just pervades this book, in a way.

Have you ever come across the LA River, Miwa?

Yes. I have, I’ve even taken the subway to do it. I do take the subway when I’m like I’m apparently the only person who does but I really like it and it’s very useful. Yeah, I am. I am. Yes, absolutely. But you know, now there’s a stop in Little Tokyo, which people are trying to call the arts district. I’m like, yeah, it’s a little Tokyo but that’s okay. Like, are we really doing Oh, we are really doing this. Okay. gentrification has come for like the last bits.

Especially that quarter. Me what because it’s like, new high rise, new high rise, new high rise $6,000 apartment.

I was at dinner on San Mateo street the other day. I was just like, wait a minute, what is that building that was not there? You know, there’s a shell of a new high rise with, you know, all of this. And that was not there three months ago, I don’t really understand how quickly that building went up. And I’m like, don’t we have earthquake stuff that we? Okay, apparently, okay. I don’t build buildings, I just sell books.

But I mentioned I mentioned because it you know, you know, it’s called, it’s called the wash. And I just remember being so confused as to why it was called a river. And it’s like, you know, it’s far from from what a river and let’s say, the East Coast, other parts of the of the country look like. And that was just like another, I guess, in a way, I spent a lot of times at the wash or near the LA River. And it’s kind of a homage to what that strange structure meant to me growing up.

But again, the landscape, right, like, so much a part of this book, and you do it, you the way you write about the valley, the way you write about LA the way you write about these boys. It’s all very economical, you’re not wasting words. So this brings me back to the language thing. So you’ve talked about how autobiographical this is, you’ve worked on it, you did sort of need a little bit of outside push right to say, I can do this as a novel and not as nonfiction. So when do you know it’s time to let it go? Like you had at one point, you had to hand it over to your agent, and then you had to hand it over to your editor. And now you’re handing it over to readers.

Do you want to hear something crazy? Well, and I can’t believe I’m gonna say this, but this is the most kind of honest answer I got. With this book, my problem was actually sitting with it longer, you know, where were my agent or my editor was like, it’s not, you know, we need this. It’s not I’m like, did you like he and Johnny, they did it, they did the thing, like, we’re ready to fly. And they’re like, no, there’s like, there’s this. So I’m sure how, you know, my experience with further books will be different. Well, I will do that thing, right. Just keep working on it keep work. And Lord knows I, there was a lot of revision that went into this book, but the child in me was just like, we’re done, we can be done, like we wrote, wrote about something that other people that I haven’t read before, so isn’t it great? Like, doesn’t need to be published next week? You know, they’re like, no.

Rewriting, I can’t say this enough. But rewriting is a big part of the process. You gotta take out the stuff that and yeah, you got to add.

And there was a lot of—let’s just say she saved me from myself.

You have a very good editor, I will say that I’m very fond of her taste. She’s got really good taste. Do you miss this family? Do you miss K?

There’ll be these times where I’m like, here washing dishes or whatever. And the people that I miss are, because what you said earlier about like, not just the brothers but like the Johnny’s, the Christian, the people that they encounter on the basketball court, you know, I miss what it meant to be a child and not quite have the language to understand how fraught things were, I mean, of course, they were going through these things, but it was just so propulsive and every day, and there’s, for me, it’s such a sense of community and I miss that gathering, of being able to come together. And even if you’re not talking about it, specifically, there’s you mentioned, you know, there’s yeah, there’s a great deal basketball, and there’s one scene in particular with K and Shawn, his eldest brother, where it turns quite violent, and for me, obviously, I don’t hope that for any siblings or anybody, but I think there was a kind of grace in the opportunity that basketball afforded for physicality for even like, yeah, just this primal reaction, which allowed them actually to have some semblance of a relationship.

To me, that was a conversation. I mean, yeah, it reads like, Okay, here’s the thing. It reads like a fight. Absolutely. It reads like a fight. It reads like two brothers knocking each other around. But for them in that moment, it’s a conversation. It’s the only way they have to connect. I am not excusing violence. I am not saying that this is, you know, we should always use our words. Yes, absolutely. But in this particular case, in this novel in this world with these brothers, that was it, that’s all they had. That was the only way they were going to connect. And later yes, they find their words they turn into men together like this? This is a moment with little boys being little boys. And yet I mean, they’re adolescents at this point, but I’m sorry, adolescents are not — they’re little boys.

A lot of adult men are still little boys.

And that’s yeah, you don’t let the toxic masculinity slide in this book. You do not, you’re just like and you and you. Which I will say, you know, as a check, it was very nice to see the men calling out. Always be the ones going, Oh, this again. Sometimes it helps when the men are like, Oh, this again. And, you know, you hope that the boys will figure it out. And I think they might. I mean, I’m assuming that as much as you and I have joked about whether or not you come back to these characters in another book that you’ve started the next thing, right, like you’re thinking about what the next thing might be?

Pretty deep into it, yea. Yeah. Yeah, haven’t showed it to anybody. I’m like, you know, as far as like, agent and editor, I’m so curious. Like, if they’ll just be like, No, thank you. We’ll see. But I’m, you know, talking about I’m like, I’m working really hard on this.

That I don’t doubt. That you’re like, doing the work. I’m just waiting to read. I just have to read. Really, I just have to wait, I can do the patience thing when it comes to writers. But other than that, I’m kind of like, hi, patience. What is that?

What you give us with this show. I told you this before we started recording, like, Ottesa Moshfegh, all of them, I just sit there and I’m like, Cool. I get a free education. Free. But like, you know what I mean, it’s just so thanks. So thank you, and you work exceptionally hard as well. And we’re so lucky, I really mean that we’re so lucky to have you in this program.

Well, that’s insanely nice of you to say, but thank you. Because yeah, it does take a lot of time, but it’s worth it. It’s totally worth it. I mean, the most important piece for me, though, is that like, this is an LA novel. You know, there’s so many people who have ideas about what it means to be from Los Angeles, you know, and who we are and all this other stuff. And it’s just like, well, actually.

Well, thank you so much for like, drive that because it’s like, it’s equal to like what you’re saying we were talking about, like, coming through customs and getting all kinds of, there’s lots of questions and us being like, Yo, we’re an American, like, blah, blah. And I need to sort of embrace what you’re saying, which is like, like, I think hearing you say is the first time I have sort of recognized in myself and acknowledged that this is an LA novel, but for me, because it’s I think different from the law says media that I take in but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have a space under that umbrella. So I just really appreciate you like really driving that. Oh, because it is I love Los Angeles and write about it.

It’s yeah, Khashayar J Khabushani, dude, let’s do this again. I cannot wait for the next book. I cannot wait for the world to experience your LA novel. It makes me so happy that this book is going to be out in the world. So I Will Greet the Sun again and yes, I had to look at the title because I do not want to mess up this title and I have had horrible tendency of shortening titles. Anyone knows this. So anyway, dude, it was so good to see you. Thank you so much for joining us on Poured Over.

I appreciate you very, very much Miwa.