Poured Over: Ibram X. Kendi on How to Raise an Antiracist

“And so, too often, kids are raised to have empathy for people who look like them, or worship like them or act like them. And we’re also taught to have empathy for people who deserve it. And I wanted to convey the importance of raising our kids to have empathy for people who don’t look like them or don’t live near them. And for us to not make our empathy almost like a tip in which it’s transactional.”

Award-winning, bestselling author and MacArthur Genius Grant recipient Ibram X. Kendi returns with How to Raise an Antiracist, a book that parents, caregivers and teachers won’t want to miss. Ibram joins us on the show to talk about his own family’s experiences, as well as the intersection of ableism and racism, learning from our children, the importance of joy, and much more with Poured Over’s host, Miwa Messer. And we end this episode with TBR Topoff book recommendations from Marc and Becky.

Featured Books (episode):

How to Raise an Antiracist by Ibram X. Kendi

Magnolia Flower by Zora Neale Hurston

Stamped: Racism, Antiracism, and You: A Remix of the National Book Award-winning Stamped from the Beginning by Jason Reynolds, Ibram X. Kendi

Poured Over is produced and hosted by Miwa Messer and mixed by Harry Liang. New episodes land Tuesdays and Thursdays, here and on your favorite podcast app.

Full transcript for this episode:

B&N: I’m Miwa Messer, I’m the producer and host of Poured Over and I’m so excited that Ibram Kendi is here to talk about his newest book, How to Raise an Antiracist, you know, as the best selling author of How to Be An Antiracist and Stamped from the Beginning, among other books. He’s also the co author with Jason Reynolds have a young adult version of Stamped, which was one of Barnes and Noble’s books of the year for 2020. So we’re very excited to see you. But I wanted to set a baseline before we got into the new book and just really take a moment because I think there’s some folks who still don’t quite grasp that anti racist and not being racist are not actually the same thing.

Ibram X. Kendi: No, they’re not. And I’m so glad we’re able to have this conversation. What I’ve tried to show with my work is that the the opposite of being racist, is being anti-racist. And so, if someone a racist idea connotes racial hierarchy, that certain racial groups are better or worse than others, than an anti racist idea’s the opposite, connotes ideas of racial equality of a policy that is racist is leading to inequity and injustice between groups, then what’s the opposite of that a policy that’s leading to equity, and justice between groups. The unfortunate truth, though, is when someone is supporting a racist policy or expressing a racist idea, and someone else points it out. The typical response is, I’m not racist. And so that’s where that construct of not racist sort of comes into play, while to be anti racist, actually, is to admit the times in which we’re being racist, so we can be better and grow and pursue a more anti racist form of behavior.

B&N: So I’m going to ask you a question that you ask the readers early on in how to raise an anti racist, we imagine our children can’t be racist, why teach them about a problem they can’t possibly have.

IXK: And that’s precisely I think, one of the underlying assumptions that, that parents have we, we think that our kids are too young to sort of understand these complicated or complex ideas. What I’ve realized is actually ideas like dark skin is ugly, is a very simple idea that even a two year old can understand the the idea that certain people have more because they are more, is an actually very simple idea that kids can be taught directly and indirectly. And so that’s why it’s so important for us to be teaching children to not attach skin color to quality to not think people have more, because they are more, but the problem is backwards.

B&N: And so much of this book comes out of your own experience as a parent. I remember actually, when you brought your baby daughter to the national records, it was possibly the first time anyone had seen a baby at the national records, but it was very exciting. But here’s the thing, you are talking about newborns, in fact up to the age of sort of teenage like late teens, right? So we’re covering a wide range of age here. And you’re basing it a lot on your own experience, too. You’re talking about your own daughter’s experience, you’re talking about the challenges you faced, wanting to raise your daughter in an anti racist way. So when did you actually start thinking about this book? Was it while you were writing How to Be An Antiracist?

IXK: I probably started thinking about the need for this type of knowledge or guidance when I became a father, you know, six years ago. And particularly by the time my daughter became one, and especially two years old, I started thinking about, okay, how do I apply this to my daughter? How do I start having these conversations, you know, with my daughter, and I had no idea or this, I didn’t know what the research was saying, right? So I in a way went on that search. And simultaneously in the summer of 2020, when many people were thinking really, for the first time about being anti-racist themselves, they also started thinking about, okay, how do I talk to my children about this? How do I talk to my students? And many of those people asked me, and I was like, I’m not sure. So let me figure it out, you know, and write a book based on the research for it.

B&N: One of the things that really surprised me when you were talking about your own story. Eugenics comes up early on in the book, and I think it’s worth addressing here because it was surprising for you as well. And it’s another question that you asked yourself in the writing of this book, and also the raising of your child basically saying, I don’t know how I’m going to circumvent these ideas of eugenics that I was raised with. I mean, all of us of a certain generation had been raised with certain ideas, the idea that talent is inherent, or intelligence is a trait that passes from parent to child, when in fact, there isn’t actually any real science that proves that.

IXK: Indeed, and that was something that I know my partner and I have wrestled with, you know, as caregivers, and I suspect it’s something else. It’s something that many caregivers are wrestling with, when their child does something at six months old, or one years old, that’s like amazing, or that similar to something that their parents have done. In my case, it was our daughter cooed, you know, very early on. Not long after, she was actually her second day, being born at 29 and a half weeks, and typically babies don’t coo for several weeks after being born. And so we were like, Oh, my gosh, does this mean she has this sort of expressive gene, you know, we’re both communicators. And of course, we had to catch ourselves. And I think that it’s important for, for parents and caregivers to catch themselves. Because once we go down the line, that certain individuals have genetic predisposition to a particular intelligence or communication, it’s hard for us to not then say, certain races or groups have a genetic predisposition into a particular positive or negative view.

B&N: And this is a huge part of the problem, because a lot of what happens in our conversations about race and racism. Right now, it seems like there’s so much fear, there’s so much disinformation, frankly, there’s a lack of empathy. And that is part of what racism tries to do, though, it tries to teach us that we should not have empathy for people who are not us.

IXK: Exactly. And I was very deliberate in having a chapter in how to raise and are terrorists on empathy, but not just the teaching of empathy, and the relationship between raising an empathetic child and raising a child who is going to be considerate and compassionate of others, even people who don’t look like them. But also specifically raising a child to antiracist empathy. And so too often, kids are raised to have empathy for people who look like them, or worship like them or act like them. And we’re also taught to have empathy for people who deserve it. And I wanted to convey the importance of raising our kids to have empathy for people who don’t look like them or don’t live like near them. And for us to not make our empathy almost like a tip in which it’s transactional. Well, you just show that you’re worthy of my concern. So therefore, I’m going to deliver.

B&N: Can we talk about your brother for a second, he plays a very big role in the street, you two had very different school experiences. And your parents, I really like your parents, I hope I get to meet them Sunday. Sounds phenomenal. But can we talk about your brother and his experience in school because I think this is a really important point for other folks to hear.

IXK: My brother, when he was about two years old or so was diagnosed as having a learning disability and speech impediment and, and so he went into specialized schooling for for him and initially, it was hard for my parents in New York City, to find schooling for him. And my suspicion was that, particularly for speech therapy programs and programs related to learning disability, white children were over represented in those programs, relative to the numbers in the state. So we don’t know whether it was because of his race where he wasn’t able to get into a program, he finally was able to get into a program and it started doing really well. But when he got to fourth grade, the teacher and him did not have the best of times. And I think he responded to what appeared to be the teacher’s sort of racist discrimination towards him by essentially closing up and not speaking, which then only inflamed it, which then ultimately led to the teacher having a role in his diagnosis being changed to the more stigmatizing intellectual disability. And I just wanted to sort of use my brother’s story as a window into how ableism and racism intersect to specifically harm our children. And and certainly it was this way for my black brother, but even I wrote about how, for instance, white, I should say Asian American children, teachers have the highest expectation for them. And they simultaneously are the least likely to be referred for diagnosis related to disability. And what I speculated is that people are not recognizing them as normal kids who have challenges just like, you know, the rest of us. And so in a way, certain kids are not receiving special support because of their race. And other kids are being ostracized because of their race.

B&N: And your parents were really involved both in your schooling and your brothers and yours for a slightly different reason. But what I appreciate about how they handled it was they were really involved. And they were really in front of the teachers and the administration, they even moved you multiple times. I mean, how many schools did you go to before high school?

IXK: I think total, including high school, I went to eight schools.

B&N: And that was because your parents knew that the system was not working for you, as a student. And they were really ahead of their time. I mean, this was when?

IXK: This was the 1980s and right 1990s.

B&N: Right. I mean, that feels like a really important point to make, that your parents were really involved that they were really in a place where they could support you and say, Hey, wait a minute, this system is not working. And let’s figure out how to make that happen. And I feel like we’re missing those conversations that people have internalized and personalize things that are actually not necessarily about them as people. And I think folks are still having a really hard time seeing the difference.

IXK: Well, and I think it’s also difficult for many parents to be as involved and aggressive as my parents were, I mean, I think, certainly, I wrote a little bit about how my father’s mother worked a wage job in a factory. And it created conditions in which if she was to leave work to respond to something that was happening to him at his school, let’s say he was being mistreated by a teacher that could cause her to not make rent or to not be able to to put food on the table or how I wrote about how my mother had to lobby to get time off after I was born. Because her female supervisor refused to give her six weeks of medical leave without pay. And so obviously, we’re in a different time with the Family and Medical Leave Act of 1993. But it just goes to show how difficult it is for parents to protect their children, even from the harms of racism in school, which then makes it even more incumbent when we’re home to really arm them before they go out into the world.

B&N: Which brings me to a point that you make later in the book. Eleven is apparently a very impressionable age. And there are folks out in the world including the head of The Daily Stormer, which if you don’t know that website, well, it’s not great. It is straight up white supremacy. And he has said out loud that he believes 11 year olds are a very good target demographic for the ideas that he espouses on this website. And it’s a little younger than I expected, I would have expected to hear 13/14/15 but 11 feels so tender and small. And parents aren’t necessarily and caregivers aren’t necessarily equipped to have these conversations. So how do we help them? How do we help ourselves have these conversations with people at a younger age than we were ever expecting to have them?

IXK: I think first it’s just that point right there just the critical importance of having these conversations. I mean, how is an 11 year old child going to be able to recognize white supremacist ideology coming from someone they’re playing with on a multiplayer video game, or that’s giving them a direct message on Instagram or on a me on a video on YouTube or TikTok, if no one’s ever talked to them about it. So part of the reason why it’s so critical for us to actively talk to our kids about race actively ensure that they’re reading books and materials that we’re taking them to places is because it gives them the ability to recognize white supremacist ideology to read recognized racist and sexist and homophobic and anti semitic ideology so that, A, they can protect themselves from internalizing it when other people say it. And even you know more ominously, if a white supremacist tries to recruit them, they will know what that person is saying is wrong.

B&N: So in other words, creating a world for antiracist children and adults to flourish, just means we’re better preparing everyone for life in the world.

IXK: Exactly. And, you know, if we think about it, when we have very young children after they start walking, one of the things we do as parents, and certainly, you know, daycare providers and teachers, is we teach them to look both ways before they cross the show. Even though in our minds, you know, they’re still very young, right, the likelihood that they’re going to be walking down the street by themselves, is very slim. But we start the process of allowing them to understand that there are dangers in this society, and we’re like, it’s gonna be uncomfortable to tell them yes, you have to look both ways. Because otherwise, you know, a car can hit you and could hurt you really bad. Yes, it’s uncomfortable to teach them that. But it’s going to protect them just in case any day, we’re walking down the street with them, and they release their hand, and they’re about to cross the street, and then they stop because of that lesson. It’s the same thing as it relates to race. This is a dangerously racist society, there are all sorts of messages that vulnerable children are hearing about people being better or worse because of their skin color. We’re not teaching them something different than they’re going to get hit and harmed by those ideas.

B&N: I’m part of that is increasing media literacy. It’s not even reading comprehension at this point. I mean, back in the day, it was much more sort of, can you even figure out what this paragraph means? And now it’s do you understand what that mean, is telling you, and it’s happening at on a scale that I don’t think we were prepared for? What has your daughter taught you? She’s six now. She is her own person. She has many, many opinions. She has classmates, she has a life outside of home with mom and dad. What does she taught you about being anti racist?

IXK: I think she’s just taught me the critical importance of joy. Of ultimately, we are trying to create a world where people can be can be joyful. When people can enjoy life, where were the sort of harms of racism is not causing so much misery for so many people. And indeed, our children and adults, you know, can experience joy. So she’s just so joyful, and joyful to be around. And it’s so it’s hard for me to not be focused on joy, you know, when I’m with her and when I’m around.

B&N: I mean, you’re very clear that this is not a prescriptive book, this is not a how to this is not a you’re in the wrong, I’m in the right this is we need to figure out as a society, how to move our society forward, no one is benefiting from the current system in the grand scheme. No children or no child is benefiting from the current system. So you are doing a version of this book, though, for young readers with Nic Stone, which I think is the best idea. It’s it’s a similar idea, a remix that you did with Jason Reynolds. So when do we see that?

IXK: January 2023.

B&N: Okay, that means you’ve almost passed it to your public. Well, maybe you passed it to your publisher do the hit pages yet? Where are we in the process?

IXK: We’re very close.

B&N: Oh, that’s so excellent. So we get to start the new year with you and Nic. But beyond that, what else have you been working on? You’re heading up this program that you founded at Boston University, which is a very big deal. But what kind of work are you doing?

IXK: I think in terms of publishing, I also have Magnolia Flower, which is a picture book that’s based on an adaptation of Zora Neale Hurston’s short story of the same title. And I’m actually doing a series of children’s books based on on Zora’s work. So I’m really excited because that picture book, which is illustrated by Loveis Wise, it’s just beautiful. And it’s, you know, an incredible, and so, and being able to work with the literature of one of our sort of American literary giants has just been quite scary and humbling at the same time.

B&N: I think it’s really exciting though. You’ve been working on picture books, I think to see yourself on the shelf of a library or bookstore is really important. I mean, I came up In an age where, you know, there weren’t a lot of Asian American kids and picture books, and if they were, they were in China or Japan, they weren’t in Boston. So I think it’s pretty terrific. But aren’t you working on something else too? Didn’t I hear that you were working on sort of a companion to the original Stamped?

IXK: So yes, I mean, we’re, I’m working on a potential new addition. We’ll see if I can finish that. Because Stamped is a giant, so trying to get through this, you know, it’s very significant.

B&N: Okay, we’ll be patient. But in the meantime, I want to get back to How to Raise an Antiracist for a second. Is there a moment that surprised you? When you were writing this book? Is there something that you just hadn’t been prepared for? And suddenly there it wasn’t, it made all the sense in the world.

IXK: I think one of the one of the studies that really surprised me was a study that that found that our kids can understand complex topics before they have the language to express their understanding. And the reason why that was just shocking for me is because I think most people, when they’re interacting with kids, they’re trying to think, okay, is the kid at a developmental level that we can have this conversation and then assessing that based on what the kid is saying. And you know, according to studies, they don’t have that language, not because they don’t understand it, but because we haven’t talked to them about it, which would then give them the language. So I think for me, especially as it relates to having conversations about race and racism, we should not assume that a child cannot understand it, if they haven’t used the language of understanding. And I think that’s going to be very, it was very impactful for me in my interaction with my daughter, and I know it will be impactful for other people.

B&N: But reading that in the book made me very hopeful about our ability to adapt, I think it’s really a matter of getting the information out. And having people practice, I think one of the points that you’ve made throughout your work, that’s hugely important is the fact that practicing anti racism is just that it’s an action. It’s not simply a state of being that you wake up in one day that you continue to build this muscle, and work at it, and have these conversations with the people around you. And I’m really hoping that they will take away that hopefulness that I have, after reading this book.

IXK: Hopefully, so too, and indeed, me being racist, being anti racist, is, is a journey, it’s not a destination. And, and I certainly hope, through How to Raise an Antiracist, we have human beings who can start the journey much earlier than we did, I think we can imagine as adults how hard it was right? 30, or 40, or 50, to start this journey to start having these conversations to start having a self examination. But just like it was hard for us to learn a new language when we were 40 or 50. But But young kids, it’s much much easier for them. So I also don’t want us to assume because it’s hard for us, it’s gonna be hard for kids, because it’s gonna actually be easier for kids than then than it is and was for us.

B&N: I think that is one point. I know, we’ve talked about how the book isn’t prescriptive at all. But that is one point that you make that I think it’s important to raise, before I let you go back to all of the millions of things you need to do is that sometimes we keep that we hold back from these conversations, because we’re more uncomfortable than kids are, that kids can handle a lot more than we give them credit for. And if we can just let them stretch a little bit, they might just bring us along too.

IXK: Exactly. As I write about my partner, real Dr. Kim, pediatric ER physician, and one of the things she always tells me is part of the reason why she specifically chose to work in a kid’s emergency department as opposed to an adult. One is because kids respond better in crisis. And you know, kids are more resilient, and they’re easier to work with in these very difficult sort of moments. And I think that’s very instructive for us that even though it’s difficult for us, you know, in these difficult moments, actually kids likely operate in even better way than you know than adults do.

B&N: And reading is a really great way to build empathy. So if you’re reading to your small people, you’re already starting them off on the right foot. Ibram kendi thank you so much for making the time for joining us on pored over we really appreciate you. How to Raise an Antiracist is out now. And also people should not forget the other books as well. Thanks again.

IXK: You’re welcome. Thank you.