Poured Over: Isaac Fitzgerald on Dirtbag, Massachusetts

“I wish I could tell you that I went to a cabin and wrote it perfectly and got it in on time, and it just flowed out of me. But really, the truth of the matter is, it came in fits and starts. And it was written on notepads and half-filled notebooks and phone apps and bar napkins….I grew up in a time of a lot of white men writing, Oh, my sad childhood stories. And so my whole thing was I’m not going to do that, I’m not going to do that.” Isaac Fitzgerald walks through the world with an open heart, and luckily for readers, he takes notes. Dirtbag, Massachusetts: A Confessional is his memoir-in-essays and it covers plenty of ground, from his unconventional childhood and the librarians who helped change the trajectory of his life, to issues of class and code switching and complicated family dynamics, to the craft of writing and his literary inspirations. He joins us on the show to talk about all that and more, including a few things that didn’t make the book’s final draft, with Poured Over’s host, Miwa Messer. And we end this episode with TBR Topoff book recommendations from Marc and Becky.

Featured Books (episode)

Dirtbag, Massachusetts: A Confessional by Isaac Fitzgerald

Bad Feminist by Roxane Gay

The White Boy Shuffle by Paul Beatty

The Stories of Breece D’J Pancake (with an afterword by Andre Dubus III)

Featured Books (TBR Topoff)

Running with Scissors by Augusten Burroughs

The Tender Bar by J.R. Moehringer

Poured Over is produced and hosted by Miwa Messer and mixed by Harry Liang. New episodes land here and on your favorite podcast app Tuesdays and Thursdays (with occasional Saturdays).

Transcript for this episode of Poured Over:

B&N: I’m Miwa Messer, I’m the producer and host of Poured Over and if I sound a little nasally, it’s because I have a tiny head cold. I am so excited to introduce you guys to one of my favorite writers. This is a guy who walks through the world with an incredibly open heart. And I don’t mean like aiming for canonization open heart, we’re not talking about that. But this is a dude who walks through the world in a way that not all of us can. But maybe more of us should try to do. So. Isaac Fitzgerald, it’s so good to see you. Your first memoir is out. It’s called Dirtbag, Massachusetts. I will never get tired of this title. But why don’t you bring people into what you’ve done with this book? How did it start? When did it begin? 

Isaac Fitzgerald: Well, Miwa, well, first off, thank you so much for having me on the show. As you know, I’m a big fan as well, and also a big fan of you. So, I’m so happy to be here. And I’m really excited we’re making this happen. This book, I wish I could tell you that I went to a cabin and wrote it perfectly and got it in on time. And it just flowed out of me. But really, the truth of the matter is, it came in fits and starts. And it was written on notepads and half-filled notebooks and phone apps and bar napkins. And it was a long, long project that I think I was working on before I even realized I was working on it. I pitched it to Bloomsbury as a collection of essays very much in line with Roxane Gay, who, of course, is somebody I deeply, deeply admire. And one of her collections, one of her first collections Bad Feminist. And I was thinking about something very much in line with that, which is that it would Roxane so perfectly captures moments from her life in that book, also tackling, you know, either pop culture or main culture, things just like writing about all these different things. So that’s what I was aiming for when I pitched it, I realized, as I started to work on it, I realized as I started to write it, that it was going to be a lot more focused on my childhood, than I expected it to be. A lot less about kind of pop culture and things out there in the world, and a lot more about my childhood and the way that I’ve reacted to it. And I think that was something that had to come out through the writing, because for a very long time—and I think this speaks to something—for a very long time in my 20s, one of the things I told everyone was that I was never going to write a memoir. Right? So, I grew up in the 90s, I grew up in a time of, you know, the 90s and the 2000s. I grew up in a time of like a lot of white men writing like, Oh, my sad childhood stories. And so, my whole thing was, I was like, I’m not going to do that, I’m not going to do that. And I would tell you, I’m not going to do that. I’m not going to do that. And then what happened is, as I started working on this book, I realized not only was there a lot for me to unpack there, but I also wanted to understand what it was I was pushing against in those books that I read and deeply loved in the 90s and 2000s, what it was that I was kind of afraid of. And I think there’s a there’s a wonderful essay, actually that Brandon Taylor did recently—it’s a Substack that talks about how—I mean he talks about many different things—but one of the things he gets at is sometimes we’re very adverse to things when we think it’s actually maybe deep down what we want to be doing and we can’t see it ourselves. And so I think that’s something that was happening there. And through trying to write this book, I found myself realizing that I wanted to write about my childhood, also write about why I reacted to it the way that I did, while also exploring what it was about those books that I was uncomfortable with, and how I could make this book different. And to wrap it up without giving too much away. I think the thing I was really trying to avoid was a lot of those books came with kind of a perfect bow ending. Like, here’s what was messed up. Here’s how I got over it. Here’s mine. 

B&N: I recognize a lot of Massachusetts in your story, even though we grew up very differently. And you know, neither of us has lived there in a really long time, we go back as we need to. But Massachusetts is the kind of place that you carry around with you. And it’s not just New England, it’s partially class. It’s partially attitude. It’s partially history. It’s all of these weird moments that are instantly recognizable if you’re from the place itself. So, I want to talk about how Massachusetts made you. 

IF: First up, really great question and really insightful for you to take that away, and something that just popped into my head as you said that I just thought everybody spot on the week carried around even if you’ve left it behind, very much like Catholicism. In that way. You will meet many lapsed Catholic, but you can still see the effects of being raised within the church will have on that person throughout their life. You will see the kinds of things that they still kept with them despite maybe deciding to leave the religion behind. And that is absolutely true of Massachusetts. I think you’re absolutely right. Like, don’t get me wrong, I think it’s true in New England as well, I don’t want to make that like just the Massachusetts, its true of many different areas in the country. But the thing about Massachusetts specifically touched on it perfectly is the class aspect to it. Which is to say another thing I was trying to come across in this book, is I grew up in one of the lowest income areas in the state. But that’s still one of the lowest income areas in a very wealthy state. So, what does that look like when you have poverty that close to areas of great, great wealth? And what does it look like when your version of poverty compared to those around you, is very different than the levels of poverty you might find in other parts of the country. But the way that Massachusetts formed me through and through: I was born and raised in Boston, I think that had a huge impact on who I am, as a person. I love boats, I love the water. I won’t lie, we are taught a very specific type of history in Massachusetts. I’m sure that has opened up more since the 80s. But one, we’re talking about, like, basically, the Revolutionary War was all us. Forget everyone else, and we made it all happen. There’s a lot of storytelling in in my life from a very, very early age. And I do I think the Catholic Church is, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s based on a lot of things, but it’s also very much based on a collection of stories on history, again, is nothing but a bunch of usually made up and to make the people in power look good stories. But so, there’s that storytelling aspect to it. And then because of my parents very unique position, which is to say they were unhoused. They were also educated, which is something that you will also find in Massachusetts, again, that comes from this like being low income, but in a very wealthy state you like my friend Connor. In the book, his mother, it’s very much living in the woods. This is after we move out of Boston, but she’s a perfect example of a wonderfully caring woman, a librarian, who spoke five languages, but lived well below the poverty line, you know, so you find that that’s all to say that you could really get an education in that state, no matter where you’re at. And that is to say, going back to my parents, they were educated, they’re unhoused. But growing up where they raised me in Boston, in the Catholic Worker which for those that don’t know, is an organization stared by Dorothea Day, and it’s very rooted in both Catholicism, but also socialism. So a lot less of the pageantry of the main Catholic Church, a lot more of the give your shirt off the back, if somebody needs it meant that I was raised around all these other people were incredibly unique stories themselves. So the one way that Massachusetts affected growing up 100% is how much books and storytelling and to be honest, personal lore, because especially New Englanders, especially people from Massachusetts, they love that personal lore. And I do I think that gets back to that Paul Revere by the history all without a shot around the world, da da da da. So, like a deep, deep interest in kind of personal lore that I definitely think shaped me. And then the other thing that I will say is, is from my childhood, like I said, I moved from inner city Boston to a very rural part of the state. That is the other aspect. After that, I would not give up for anything, because it meant that I did have a very city-based life, I knew what it was to live basically a walking life, right, using public transportation, or just walking or riding your bike everywhere. And then also living in a very rural area where of course I could ride my bike, but it was a time that you basically couldn’t walk anywhere unless you were in for a really long day. Trying to make friends with older kids just because they had a beat-up jalopy that they could get you place to place with. And I wouldn’t give up that kind of love of the outdoors that came from that rural upbringing, and also the love of city and culture that came from my Boston upbringing or anything. 

B&N: But as you alluded to a second ago, your parents’ relationship was tricky. They were married to other people when they had you. They were unhoused. They had met—if I remember correctly in Divinity School, right? So graduate school. It seemed problematic more for your mother’s family than your dad’s. Yeah? Because you were living next door to your grandmother. And this is where things become really quite intense. I think in ways that no one could have predicted including your parents. 

IF: I’m so glad you said that. I’m so glad you picked up on that. Because I think in their own way they were going through their own relationship. Absolutely right. They’re married when they had me, just to different people, like you said, but they do eventually come together. It took some years, but they eventually get married. And then the problems did not stop, and they were still having issues. But at that time, my mom and I moved out there alone for a little while my father would follow eventually. But I think the purpose of that move, I think, and things that were unspoken, but the spoken purpose was to get me out of the city. Things had been rough, there had been some, some tough moments. And I think they were making the choice to try and better their lives, they really believe that I’ve read, I have to believe that that’s, like you said, neither of them could predict that actually, that is where things would get way, way worse. 

B&N: But that tumult allowed you to find a way out that you wouldn’t have found otherwise—I believe, at least in reading the book—and a librarian essentially saved your life by showing you the way out to boarding school. 

IF: Another thing my parents had an even living in Boston, the place they would bring us all the time, because again, it was also free, right? God bless librarians, God bless libraries. And God bless spaces that are provided by the city that you can still go to for no money. And I hope there’s a lot more of that, to be honest. But so, God bless libraries, my parents would bring me to the Boston Public Library as a small child, that’s where I spent so much my time. Books were very, very important to both of my parents, it’s the one thing they adapted from a very early age, it was it was really made clear to me how important books and reading were. And so, because of that, I of course, fell in love with libraries as we moved out to rural North Central Massachusetts. And even then, I would like to go to the next town over there was a bookstore there, I because I was never buying anything. And I think that basically the deal was look, don’t steal anything, and you can hang out here and read whatever you want, you know. And so, and there was there was a public library, of course, in the town as well. And so I’d go there had odd hours, but no one ever I had the chance. And so I came to think of spaces with books as places where I could get away from my family, because things were getting rough, the house was very loud, but also places where I knew I could have some peace, I could have some respite, and also places of course, and everyone that loves books I think has this moment in childhood where you realize that they are just perfect, perfect escape hatches, and just sitting there and just being able to get anywhere other than what I was going through my life is so, so important to me. So by the time I get to middle school, it’s kind of built into me to befriend librarians as quickly as possible, at that time at the age of 12, is when I start finding trouble, my parents actually may be starting to just get a little bit, and that’s when I start really finding trouble. And I start hanging out with all sorts of different people, but usually much, much older than me, I’m usually 12 hanging out by 18-year-olds. And in that moment, I had a friend whose mother was also librarian at the school, she started kind of watching out for me. At one point, I get into a fight, and I end up getting in-school suspension, because they usually you get suspended get sent home, but the school was like, well, we don’t know what’s going on in his house. So we’re going to keep him in school. In that moment, I can tell like the librarians really kind of started to rally and even got some secretaries involved. And eventually, that led to them urging me to apply for boarding school and for a scholarship. And there was a school in the area. And they basically would dole out a scholarship every year. Like it’s—not to get too in the weeds here—listen, I can’t prove this. tBut in my mind that schools existed since the 1800s. And I have a sneaking suspicion—it’s big, it’s beautiful, it’s up there on the hill, and it’s surrounded by a lot of poor towns. So, I think there’s a little bit of a like, Look, we’ll educate like one of you from the area and don’t come burn it all down. I really, I mean, maybe a story. But that’s I looking back on it. That’s how it feels to me. But I’d say that got very lucky. And through the help of a lot of adults who cared. I want to be clear, my parents cared, too. They were just going through a lot of their own stuff at the time. But through a lot of adults that cared, I was then able to change the trajectory of my life, which is up until that moment, I wasn’t thinking about college, I wasn’t thinking like I just wanted to, I just want to get right. And that took me out of my home at the age of 14. And it put me in a position. Don’t get me wrong habits, as you know, in the book had it’s a whole other infrastructure and other things that could go wrong. But a structure to succeed that I’ve never been in before.  

B&N: It also teaches you how to code switch. And that’s a phrase that recently, I think more people have come into contact within the context of race, or sexual identity, where you sort of have to tamp down whatever it is that makes you not considered more mainstream-y, shall we say? And you really had to learn how to do that too, because class is part of that equation and part of that code switching. And I will say you’re one of the most polite human beings I’ve ever met in my life. And you have an explanation for that pops up late in the book that I’m going to leave for readers to discover because my feeling about that was always that it had something to do a little bit with your background, that you were overly polite because you had to sort of earn your space, wherever you were. I don’t think I’m entirely wrong about that, but your explanation is a barn burner of an explanation. At the same time, you’re still kind of doing it. I mean, in this book, you’re diving into perceptions of masculinity. You’re talking about body dysmorphia, which straight white men do not usually talk about. You’re talking about your teenage Fight Club, which we are going to talk about that because I shouldn’t have been laughing, but I was. And your hair. Straight, white men don’t usually talk about their hair. And you’ve got a pretty great chapter, or I should say essay about your hair. So I want to, I want to step back for a second, because those are all things that come out of you learning to work in two worlds. There’s family, there’s home, there’s what that means in terms of class, in terms of access, in terms of everything else. And then there’s this world that you build—because you’ve been able to change direction—because you’re at a fancy school, you’re gonna go to another fancy school, you’re gonna end up working in politics for a minute and a half. Yeah, which I always find fascinating. Yeah. And then you’re gonna find books and writing and you were a publicist at a small house for a while. And you’ve been the managing editor and an online publication. You’ve done all sorts of stuff, founding editor of BuzzFeed books, I mean, hi, you’ve done a lot. But let’s start with the code switching. Let’s start about what you learned, because that’s going to influence you as an adult. 

IF: Well yeah, and it deeply, deeply does and Miwa, I just want to say I think your—again—your read on it is perfect because you’re right there and we won’t give it away but there’s that explanation. But no, of course, it was born of this. Of course, part of the politeness that you see in me is born of a kid coming from a very rural, very impoverished situation and all of a sudden, being at a boarding school, and the embarrassment of not knowing how to tie a tie of showing up, I didn’t even have a suitcase, I brought a sleeping bag. Everyone else, of course, had sheets because they knew it wasn’t like they were living. I was I was like, I don’t know, like, it’s like a camping trip, like so there’s all these different things that I realized I was missing right out of the gate. And I realized I had to learn very quickly to keep up and then to do my best as you perfectly said it to try and blend it. Because that was the only thing I realized was I already felt like a scholarship kid. And this I’m gonna, I’m gonna be honest, you’re right. There’s nuance in all things. At the time, when you’re 14, and you’re walking up a hill with a bag on your back and you’re watching other families drop off their kids, you start to think, Oh, I’m the only scholarship kid here. But that’s not the truth. Right? The fact that matters, there are other kids on financial aid. There are other kids on scholarship. There were day students, there are all these different types of students, right. But when you’re, when you’re isolated, you’re lonely, you’re not communicating with other people, you can start to feel like really like, Oh, I’m standing out, oh, I’m standing out. I’m sure I really, really, really wanted to do my best to blend in. So a few things happen there. One, my freshman year, I practice my r’s. This is not in the book. I sat in my dorm room and I enunciated, I lost my Boston accent. I’d grown up in Boston, the area I lived in North Central Mass, nobody had the accent, lose the accent practice for a year at boarding school, so that I sound like I’m not from inner city Boston. 15 years old. Next year, Good Will Hunting comes out. This school, for the record, had kids from all around the world. All of a sudden, kids from Europe are using the Boston accent. They sound like Matt Damon in goddamn Good Will Hunting, I worked so hard to leave it. My best friend—again to use his name in the book—Connor. Connor, I don’t think he’d been to Boston like once in his life it it’s like also I come back and he’s talking with a Boston accent. Oh, it made me mad. I lost it. I lost it. I practice trying to lose it. And so that was obviously part of the as you put it, the code-switching journey for me. And I but I want to get back to again, another thing that we talked about earlier, which is talking about how Massachusetts does have this wealth and this poverty smash right on another. But in other places that is very, very true. I mean, it’s true in most cities. Let’s be honest, there’s most cities you can point to Chicago, you can point to New York, you can point to places where you only go a few blocks and all of a sudden you’re in a whole different neighborhood. But one of the smallest, in my opinion, like seven miles by seven miles, San Francisco is a place with incredible, incredible wealth gap that I then decided spend 10 years my life later on. I slowly started realizing that I had to act one way when I was at home with my friends, who would have no—at that point in my life, I had never even been on a plane—I know they hadn’t either. I was going to school from kids from other sides of the planet and I was learning so much, and I was finding out that I really enjoyed certain aspects of that, and I’d be going home and all of a sudden, I realize they’re not gonna…like they don’t want to talk about this. And that’s when something became very clear to me, which is I went to boarding school with a huge chip on my shoulder. Because that was another part of it, like especially if you grew up with certain class, especially in Massachusetts, you have such a pride about it, and I had that pride, this place, where… Was I code switching? 100%. And I have to act one way, in one place in one way or another. Absolutely. But what that also allowed me to do was realize that a lot of the prejudices that I was coming into the space with weren’t serving me either. And all of a sudden realizing like, oh, actually, it doesn’t have to be about me being one person or another person, I can bring the two needs together and recognize that there’s actually good throughout the world. And it’s about breaking that barrier down, which, again, not to get into the rhythm and the cyclical and not trying to give too much away is something I think in a big way I brought back to my parents—all of a sudden, you recognize No, they were dealing with their own things.  

B&N: I think you also get to a certain age too, and you really can’t keep blaming your parents for stuff at after a certain point. And that point is different for everyone. But I, yeah, I sort of feel like you do get to a point where you’re like, you know, now I make my own choices. 

IF: This one might be on me.  

B&N: You have a couple of this one might be on me moments. I mean, there are a couple of motorcycle crashes. There’s some other stuff. I mean, you go physically, as far away as you can almost in the continental United States, San Francisco, which seven by seven, but it is its own universe, and we’re talking pre-tech boom, San Francisco was still a little messy, a little raw. 

IF: Like there was a nice little dip. So ‘99, there’s the first the dot com boom, and then the bubble bursts. And then there’s a nice little place where you could still get like, rent for under 500 bucks on missions with like four roommates in a one bedroom. And then it went back up once you know, the second much more structured tech. But yes, I moved out there basically, in the early aughts and kind of rode that’s it, 

B&N: And made your way. But ultimately, San Francisco wasn’t going to be home and I’m dancing around San Francisco because a lot happens. But also, it doesn’t become home. It gets you to the place where you say, Oh, I can go back East. Maybe I don’t want to wash dishes in a bar anymore. Maybe I do actually want a job job. And you started making sort of a little path towards that there were a couple of jobs in San Francisco that led you to what ultimately brought you back to New York. But what did you bring to San Francisco that you left behind? 

IF: I love that city. So much like that. Here’s the fun thing. It’s interesting. Like I think what you just described is absolutely right, because that is what happened. But it’s hindsight. 20/20 is always right. I’m telling you, the month before I left San Francisco, which I believe was like, I think I leave at the very end of November in 2013. I’m telling you, you talk to me on November like 7th, maybe not that but like October 30 of 2013, I would have been on Ocean Beach, I would have been like I bleed orange and black, San Francisco forever, never going back. I love this place like I don’t do well, buses tech money’s coming in, we’ll fight it, we’re gonna wait like never. And then a couple of things happen. But the most important thing was just like, my brother had his first kid and all of a sudden, it dawned on me that I’m gonna be the weird uncle, I’m gonna be the weird uncle no matter what. But I don’t want to be that weird uncle that’s 3,000 miles away, then the job opportunity comes up, and then to be honest, the project of this book that I didn’t even realize was starting was beginning to start, which was me reconciling with my family. Because at that point, I hadn’t been home for a Christmas or Thanksgiving for almost a decade. And that’s when I started taking steps towards realizing life is not forever. In fact, it’svery, very short. And again, I want to be very clear, you don’t need to make amends with the people you don’t want to make amends, but I had that itch. I was starting to get that itch because I gotta start playing like a loose tooth in the back of your mouth and just start playing with it. It’s just kind of like, if I don’t explore that, there’s always going to be some sense of wonder. And that’s going to be so much harder to explore all the way out here. But I love, I love San Francisco so, so much. Don’t get me wrong, it’s different to go back and many friends have already left, but what friends are still there like oh, you know, our standards, this and there’s this. It’s not home for sure. But it was a place that served me so, so well for so long that I always have a deep fondness for. 

B&N: I want to talk about some of your literary influences. It was an eye opener for you, you had this great formal education. And yet no one had ever really sat you down and said Well, you know writing is a craft writing is the thing you can learn to do. 

IF: This is another one of my favorite stories and it’s not in the book. I’m so glad we’re talking about it after college like, like we touched on real quick, I went to work in politics. There’s an essay that’s not in the book that’s about that. Got a guy elected to Congress. Basically, it was like, Wait a second. And now we’re just doing like, just really realized at last (because I got a scholarship to college as well), and basically just decided to study political science. And then right out of school, worked on this campaign and was like, Oh, no, I’m might have just really wasted that college scholarship. I did not like this at all. And so not knowing what to do, I bounced back north for a little bit, I painted houses up north, but then I eventually make my way out to San Francisco. I was moving there for a relationship, which let’s be honest, I think when I showed up, there’s a little bit of a oh, you really did it. cool, cool, cool, cool. For the record, wonderful person, wonderful person. But I think there was a moment of you actually showed up, basically, I start working in Buca di Beppo, which is like the Olive Garden. But worse than actually, to be honest, I think per hour it is probably still the most money I’ve made in my life. Because it was I was I didn’t have to work full days. It was right by a conference center, sang happy birthday, like 100 times a day it was it was a horrible job. The money was there, rent was low. And so I had this free time. And that’s when this this person in my life pointed out 826 Valencia, which is a creative writing center started by Dave Eggers and the people behind McSweeney’s. But I didn’t know any of that. All I knew was that there was a sign. And that’s my friend was like, there’s just the sign. It says, storytelling and bookmaking workshop, I’m a great, I go in five minutes into this endeavor, everyone seated around a big table. It dawns on me that this is a volunteer recruitment meeting. And it’s to help kids with their homework and writing. And it had nothing to do with helping me tell stories or make books. But you can’t get up in that moment, because you look like a jerk. Listen, I was 23, I didn’t really care about kids, I’m gonna say that very honestly. Love them now. But at the time, I had other interests. So they kept talking, they kept talking. And in that moment, I noticed on the wall, where all these pieces of paper, just single pieces of paper that had typing on it, and they were covered in a pen marks, and I raised my hand. And the person said, What are you looking at? And I was like, I’m just wondering, what are these pieces of paper that are on the wall? And they’re like, Oh, well, these are all pages from man manuscripts of books that have actually been published from Dave’s friends. And in my head, I was like, I don’t know who Dave is. But okay, we’ll get to that later. They’re like Dave’s friends, electronic books. And the reason they’re up on the wall is to show the kids that while writing is a very, you know, kind of solo art, once you write your stories you can give them to either family members, or editors, or trusted teachers, or friends or people you care about will give you feedback. You don’t have to take all of it. But that will make your story better. And in that moment, I was 23 years old, up until that moment, like I said, raised throughout my entire life to love books. I thought writing was a gift, I thought writing was you got touched by God, you either had it or you didn’t. And I tried to real bad poetry in high school. And I knew I didn’t have it. Love the books. I knew I loved them. But I didn’t think I could. And in that moment, I was like teaching. I was like, Yes, we should teach eight year olds this but in my head, I was like, you like it can be a cracked. And that’s it can be something you work at and get better. I’d worked on cars, I’d grown up doing all sorts of different things with my hands. I knew what it was to practice and get better at something to gain knowledge from somebody else, buy more knowledge and get better at it. And all of a sudden, I was like, doesn’t have to be me, which is what I pictured, in an ivory tower typing a perfect manuscript, just hitting print and sending to New York where they put a cover on it. And then you’re a millionaire. Guess what none of that’s how it works, especially the millionaire part. But that’s what I thought writing was up until that moment. That’s truly what a great high school education, a great college education. Up until that moment. That’s what I got in that’s what changed for me in San Francisco. And at that point, I started journaling. I started writing horrible, horrible things, but trying and realizing they were bad, but knowing that I could get better. And most importantly, that’s where I found community and what happened and we mentioned the tech thing, not to totally, you know, make it evil. There’s some good stuff out there was Don’t forget, there was some good stuff that came out of all this. And one of them was often you could find communities anywhere. You just have to. So I found the local San Francisco literary community for which I’m deeply grateful and I want to get kudos where kudos is due, too. The folks behind McSweeney’s really, really touched me in all sorts of different ways. That includes Dave 100%, who I would go on to work for again at McSweeney’s, and his wife, Vendela Vida, who is a wonderful writer in her own right. And many of the other San Francisco literary people but then do the inner that all of a sudden, I was working with the likes of Roxane Gay with Cheryl Strayed which was incredible. I got to meet again Managing Editor. She didn’t need a lot of edits, I was basically putting in a CMS. But she when she was doing Dear Sugar back when she was still anonymous that had just a huge impact on me, Peter on another incredible writer from the San Francisco area that just like deeply, deeply touched me, the list goes on. And Paul Beatty’s work, which I discovered on the West Coast, and then got to know him. And now we’re friends in New York, which is like wild. 

B&N: White Boy Shuffle still holds. It’s still holds. And that book is, I’ve read it multiple times. But the first time I read it was in galley. It was a really long time ago. But it’s still that novel still reads like it was written. I don’t want to say yesterday, but very recently, it is wild how great that book is.

IF: He’s so so good. He’s so so funny. And I’m not joking you and I, I mean, it wasn’t a galley. But I’m telling you, I mentioned that I was living in one bedroom with like, God knows how many roommates, it was one of my roommates were like this. So there are all those artists. Just having, again, not just to the west coast, but then through the internet on and so there’s so many people that have influenced me, but like the last few shoutouts that I want to give his one, Nick Flynn to pretend like Dirtbag, Massachusetts, which shout out to Jason Diamond, he’s the person that actually gave me the idea. But, the last one is one that actually doesn’t come from anywhere where I’ve been. And I never met the person that wrote it. But it’s a book that my father actually gave me when I was very young. It was the first time that I saw, not exactly the place I was growing up, but the class level that I was growing up at reflected back into me. And that is the collected stories that recently Jay pancake, who himself was actually a writer from Virginia, who wrote a lot about West Virginia. And that is a book that I keep giving copies and copies, I’ve probably given 20 copies out. I have the first editions, one of the only first editions I have. But that book was was such a powerful moment for me when I read it and realize, Oh, these stories kind of like that ivory tower moment. These stories don’t have to be like this. They can be this other way. Paul Beatty’s book did that same thing, oh, I didn’t know a book could be this. I could name influences all day long. And I could name 100 people that helped me make these stories better. So many friends that worked on these pieces. Like, that collaborative effort is why that book that you’re holding exists. But the thing for me that I think is the most important is to remember that books can really be whatever you want them to be, and to seek out the books that teach you to open you up to the place where you can get your story to where you want it to be. That to me has always been the most important and influential thing.

B&N: How did this book change you?

IF:You know, I did the audio recording for it recently, which was an interesting experience for many different reasons. One, knowing the words that I use that I don’t know how to pronounce. It was interesting and moving, because it’s probably the last time, in at least a while, that I’m actually going to read this book cover to cover. It’s not like in a year I’m going to sit down and just like, No, I’ve got a lot of other stuff, I got a lot of other books I want to read. So it was the last time really sitting with this book, from the first page to the last page. One of the things that most most moved me was being able to recognize my own growth in it, and how much I was figuring out my relationship with my parents just by writing this book. And in a way, preparing for our next step in our relationship that is now happening, you know, not giving too much away, but the book gets to a certain point and then stops. I then handed it to them. It was very important to me that they you know, I made it very clear, it’s not like they were going to have editorial control over anything but I wanted. My mother and I in particular have been having some incredible conversations that I never thought possible. And that’s just meant the absolute world to me. And you’ll appreciate this coming from Massachusetts yourself, my father and I have talked about it in that other way.

B&N: Didn’t you climb Kilimanjaro with your dad?

IF: Which is yeah, there have been jokes. And there have been one liners, but there has been a softness and a curiosity, I think from him. That has been very, very touching as well. So the thing that this book really, really changed and what it’s about at its core is my relationship with my parents, and then to take myself out of that relationship and just focus on myself for a moment. The thing that’s changed and needs to know that I can do this. Not to put it in these terms. But you know, I am a book fanboy. And don’t get me wrong, I wrote children’s books, and I have wonderful, wonderful illustrated books with incredible Wendy MacNaughton. I’m very proud of those books. This took a lot of time, it took a lot of effort, but it’s done now. And starting another one is going to feel like a monumental task, I’m sure, it will be just that much easier. Because I know I’ve done it once before. And that’s really exciting.

B&N: Which is good to hear. Because it’s also an essay collection that has an arc. It has a story arc, this isn’t just pieces strung together, because you’d written them somewhere else. And it was like, oh, here, I can just put it next to this. There is a definite arc in the way you reveal your growth and who you are, in the way this book is constructed, which is really a joy to read. I walked into it, knowing some of the stories, but not all of the stories. And it was really exciting for me as a reader to know that you had experienced something profound, putting this to paper. And I think there are a lot of people who could use this book right now. And I think everyone’s been through it. In the last few years. And some of us have asked some hard questions, some of us have not. We’ll all get there. But it’s ultimately a book that has a lot of gratitude, has a lot of hope. And it’s very honest, and not in a way that is prickly. So I’m just really hoping that readers will come to Dirtbag, Massachusetts, with as much of an open heart as you walk through the world my friend. Thank you. Thank you, Isaac Fitzgerald. Dirtbag, Massachusetts, is out now.

IF: Your words really mean so much to me. Like that’s so wonderful to hear. And, listen, as you know, that arc took a long time to make.

B&N: I know. It took a long time, but it’s here now. And that’s really all that matters. So thanks again.

IF: Thank you.