Poured Over: Margaret Wilkerson Sexton on On the Rooftop

By Miwa Messer / September 8, 2022 at 6:00 am

“…In this particular book, I think I wanted to combat the feeling that we were already inundated with, and even the feelings that are attached to social justice issues. I wanted to combat the feelings of anger and helplessness and all of that with joy.” Margaret Wilkerson Sexton follows her NAACP Image Award-winning novel The Revisioners with On the Rooftop, a stunning novel about a mother whose dream of stardom for her three daughters clashes with their own desires in a rapidly gentrifying 1950s San Francisco. Margaret joins us on the show to talk about wanting to write a book that sits in conversation with Fiddler on the Roof, how her research led her to the Harlem of the West, writing a love story for an older couple, her literary inspirations and much more with Poured Over’s host, Miwa Messer.

Featured Books (Episode)

On the Rooftop by Margaret Wilkerson Sexton

The Revisioners by Margaret Wilkerson Sexton

A Kind of Freedom by Margaret Wilkerson Sexton

The Yellow House by Sarah M Broom

The Vanishing Half by Brit Bennett

Breath, Eyes, Memory by Edwidge Danticat

The Candy House by Jennifer Egan

Olive, Again by Elizabeth Strout

The Secret Lives of Church Ladies by Deesha Philyaw

All Aunt Hagar’s Children by Edward P. Jones

The Known World by Edward P. Jones

Featured Books (TBR Topoff)

Swing Time by Zadie Smith

Amy and Isabelle by Elizabeth Strout

Full transcript for this episode:

I’m Miwa Messer, I’m the producer and host of Poured Over, and I am so happy to be with Margaret Wilkerson Sexton this morning. She is the author, obviously, of The Revisioners and A Kind of Freedom. Her third book, On The Rooftop, is just out. And part of my very good mood is because I spent the morning listening to Dinah Washington because of On The Rooftop. And I spent a lot of last night listening to Ben Webster. And now, Margaret, I’m convinced I need to start every morning with Dinah Washington because of you

MWS

I love it. And I want to do the same thing. I don’t think it occurred to me that outside of the research process, I should be doing the same thing.

It was such such a treat

MWS

that makes me so happy.

This book, though, On the Rooftop, is slightly different from the earlier books—you have an NAACP Image Award for The Revisioners, you were long listed for the National Book Award for A Kind of Freedom. And this book, I think, is a little different in a lot of ways. So would you set this up? Would you set up On the Rooftop for listeners, please?

MWS

Sure, I would love to. And thank you so much for having me by the way. In On the Rooftop, we meet Vivian, and she’s a widowed mom of three girls who are approaching womanhood. And she’s come to San Francisco from Louisiana, she’s escaped the Jim Crow South, and yet she’s escaped it. And yet it’s still very present in her memory, and in her mindset, and she’s poured all of the fears she has around the insecurity of her past and around being widowed unexpectedly, she’s poured all of the uncertainty she’s had around that into these girls and into specifically into them achieving this dream of stardom as the singing sensation group. She gets his news that maybe there’s a there’s a path for them to stardom, you know, when that she’s only dreamed of, but that’s now materialized maybe. And she takes this news back to the girls and she learns that the girls aren’t necessarily in agreement with her and with her vision. And, you know, there’s the whole journey that you’ll see the girls undertake, as they decide what they want to do if they want to do that if they want to do something else. And, and then more centrally, there’s this journey that Vivian’s gonna go on, to find security within herself.

We’re in San Francisco in the Filmore district in the 1950s.

MWS

Yes, so they’ve come over and through the Great Migration, there are many, many blacks who have migrated here, from the South and from other areas of the country. And they’ve come with all of this optimism and all these dreams for racial equality, which of course, they learned very soon isn’t going to be as realized as they had hoped. But they’re the optimism is still there as we open this book. And they’ve brought their culture with them. So, although they’re in San Francisco, there’s this rich, textured Louisiana aspect of the book, in many ways, it felt like I was writing about New Orleans again. And then there’s this jazz era aspect of it, they’re surrounded by music, they’re immersed in it. It’s during the Harlem of the West, as I learned, it was described, in my research, you really feel the optimism and the musical satisfaction and fulfillment and the hope and the electricity, of everything that’s going on in this time, you can really feel that in this in this small community in the Filmore in San Francisco in the 50s. And we’ll also see, you know, as the book goes along, we’ll also see, you know, not only Vivian’s dreams, and not only the daughter’s hopes, but also this community start to potentially be threatened.

So, your earlier books, obviously, were set in New Orleans, and Vivian does have a foot back home, in a way. I mean, she, she grew up there. But why this moment in San Francisco?

MWS

I always wanted to base this book on Fiddler on the Roof. I had this idea, you know, really, before any of my other books came out that I would, at some point, write a book based on Fiddler on the Roof. And the idea came from my mom, to be honest, her idea was totally different. She thought it should be exclusively Katrina centered, and back then that would be the parallel dislocation. And she thought that like, the climactic scene would be these people on the roofs of their homes, you know, with signs up saying ‘Help me’ just as you know, the images we saw in 2005 and reality. and I just, I just did not have it in me to write another Katrina book, I felt that A Kind of Freedom was a you know, to the extent that I felt comfortable commenting on Katrina, because I had moved away by that time, I felt that that was my Katrina book, and we have The Yellow House and we have Jesmyn Ward, and we’ve had so many people who have, we’ve passed really meaningful commentary on that storm, and I’m sure there’s more to come, but I just didn’t feel like that was my ministry. Really, period, but specifically in the time that I was writing this book, because I was writing it during the pandemic. And I feel like I was just depressed enough as it was and I didn’t need you know, as we all were, you know, nothing, nothing over the top but just, you know, we were all really struggling. And, you know, my family was relatively privileged, and everything was fine. But still there was this, of course, just this feeling of melancholy that just, you know, overwhelmed the country and the world. And I felt that I didn’t want, one, I didn’t want to be wallowing in that feeling in the time that I create, where I can just be in solitude, and where I can really be in charge of the mood, like this is, you know, writing a book that’s or any kind of creative activity, that’s the time when you really are in charge of the mood. And nobody else can intrude upon that nobody else can come in and decide what vibe I’m going to create in that time. And I for the first time, I had never had this urge to make it a happy mood, I had truly never had that urge, like, I actually love, I’m drawn to books that are sad, I like to create books that are sad. And especially because the commentary that I’m making usually the social commentary that I’m that I’m making, you know, the issues I’m addressing, they deserve the tone of sadness in order to honor the gravity of them, you know, in some ways, and yet, having said that, in this particular book, I think I wanted to combat the feeling that we were already inundated with, and even the feelings that are attached to social justice issues, I wanted to combat the feelings of anger and helplessness and all of that with joy. And, you know, I and so I thought, yeah, I’m writing about gentrification, and, and, and, you know, it’s the 50s. And, you know, these are black women, they’re very limited just because of what we know of history. And yet, I want to focus on the aspects of their lives that were positive, and that were joyful, and that were enduring and resilient. And it makes me so happy that people have picked up on that, because it was a very subtle, you know, it was more of an intention. It wasn’t that I did anything, like, active, it wasn’t like, I’m only going to write these scenes where she’s happy. You know, it wasn’t anything conscious. It was just a subtle intention. So it makes me so happy that people are actually like picking up on the tone. It’s such a, it’s an invisible piece.

I love Vivian and her daughters, Ruth and Esther and Chloe. You as the writer, you know, you shouldn’t be picking favorites. But as I said to you before we started recording, Esther is my gal. I’m so fond of her and it’s partially because she’s a bookseller, you know, we like to hang out with each other. But she’s also wrestling with so much and we’ll get to each of the sisters without revealing too much, obviously, because we don’t want to spoil the book. And then there’s of course, Chloe, who is the baby of the family. But how did On The Rooftop start? I mean, you talked about wanting to write Fiddler on the Roof. But did one of these women show up first? I mean, did you- these characters are so good, these women are so good.

MWS

Thank you. That’s a good question. Um, how did they show up? Well, you know, I had to find this parallel displacement. Because I was truly trying to set it up like a Fiddler on the Roof. In conversation with Fiddler on the Roof. I was I was considering creating a parallel displacement, like something that hadn’t really happened at some point in history. And just, I was actually toying around with like, creating this black commune that had come about like post-Civil War and had never been touched by any other culture or race. But it just became too much of a project. And I just didn’t want to use my energy, my creative energy in that way. So I started researching, and I found out I had no idea that there was a Harlem in the West, I had no idea that there urban renewal projects that happened, I had no idea that 1000s of black people have been displaced from the Filmore, of course, I live in the Bay Area, so I’ve seen the impact of that, but I didn’t know how far back traced right and. And so once I learned about those, basically those components, the Harlem of the West, the huge infusion of jazz, the infusion of southern culture in this community that had recently moved for the war. It just kind of fell together. It’s one of those things that happens all the time where the pieces just fall together. And it becomes very clear, like, I felt like somebody had given me a gift in a way because, you know, just having those, they’re like landmarks, you know, to anchor me in the book, like the culture, the jazz, they just, they add so much texture and so just knowing that all those pieces could fit together, and create, you know, the parallel that I was looking for. And I’m trying to I’m trying to remember if Vivian came to me first and I’m sure that she did, I mean, she’s such a formidable character. Originally it was it was mostly from her perspective, you didn’t hear as much from the girls, but I’m glad that we changed that but I’m pretty sure Vivian came to me first just kind of this, and I always knew she would be widowed or something that she would be alone. Why needed someone to stand next to Teyve you know, the main character and Fiddler on the Roof. And so she had to be a very tough, very tough character. But I, you know, there are some ways in which Tevye is a little bit like, hapless and controlled by his wife. I couldn’t have that for her. And so I needed her to have blind spots too, though, because she, I mean, she clearly does to have like, really believe that all this was gonna go the way she planned it just by virtue of the fact that she wanted it. But you know, I wanted her blind spots to be endearing and to not necessarily detract from this, you know, from this, this force that she is.

She’s also a woman of her time, she’s very much of this place of this time, of her social standing.

MWS

Yeah, that’s true.

BN
She ends up in a relationship with the preacher, who I’m gonna point out is a guy who basically could not make his own dinner and if it weren’t for his congregants bringing him dinner, he might be a little out of sorts. And her first response is ‘never occurred to me to bring you dinner.’ I love that. It’s like, dude, he can’t even make ice. I mean, he can’t make ice. And yet, I mean, he gives a lot of impassioned sermons throughout the book. And he’s obviously very good at what he does, but he’s not particularly great at taking care of himself. And here’s Vivian, like, well, I guess I’ll feed you, I guess I’ll take care of it. But also, she has had the great love of her life. Her husband, Ellis, the father of her three daughters, Ruth, Esther, and Chloe, and he has died. And they have some harrowing stories from escaping Louisiana. And so here she is in San Francisco. And she’s not quite a stage mother, but she sort of is…

MWS

It’s funny because of the setting of it and the context of who she is. It’s interesting to position her as that but no. I that’s what one of the things I think is interesting about the book is that someone could read it in this contemporary period and identify at least some aspects of her behavior and relate to it, although, of course, this precedes the phenomenon, in some ways. My brother is a professional tennis player, my mother is his manager. So, I learned a lot there, and it’s almost always, it’s almost all positive, like, it’s, it’s outstanding, that, that Vivian even has the capacity, especially at this time, especially because of what we know about history and who she is, as a black woman, it’s amazing that she has the capacity to dream about this, and then to also just to set it in motion. And that’s sort of how I feel about my mom, you know. My mom was born in 1959, in Louisiana, and yet, she just…in some very severe limitations, and yet…she doesn’t ever limit herself. It’s like, whatever dream comes to her, she’s going to figure out a way to make it happen. And she’s relentless with that. And, and so without realizing it, although I think I think my husband realized when I was writing the book that I was getting some ideas from my mom, I honestly realized that I think I was borrowing from some of her traits. And Vivian is very much her own character. But some of those traits like that, just that relentless, you know, drive, and the ability to draw people into a dream with you. It’s kind of amazing.

And motherhood is clearly something that Vivian loves. But also there was never another option for her. She was never not going to have children. And she was never not going to get married. Like that was always just going to happen, and again, we’re talking about America in the 1950s. There were not many options for women—you could be what a nurse, a teacher, maybe a secretary? Like you didn’t, if you were a woman, you really didn’t have a lot of options. There was also housekeeping and things. Really, you were stuck. You were really, really stuck. And so here’s this woman who’s kind of like, Well, actually, my daughters don’t have to live like that. And yet her oldest says, Yeah, this is not for me. We think okay, that’s great. Ruth chose her path. That’s great. And she marries a drip. Yeah, he’s a drip. Jerry’s a drip.

MWS

Well, it’s interesting, because…reading it in 2022. And, you know with hindsight and with like, all this new age parenting stuff. I’m like, Oh, Ruth should be able to do whatever she wants, like you said, it’s her life. Why should she have to? Yes, it’s stardom, but it’s almost noble that she doesn’t want to chase that path you know. But yeah, when you think about it from the perspective of Vivian—who is who has escaped these harrowing circumstances—and all she wants to do, and all she knows how to do to protect her children is to give them is to pass this dream along to them, and just have them accepted. It’s almost like, I’ll do the legwork for it, all you have to do is accept it and show up. And they’re not even meeting her there. And I think, you know, I’ve said this before, but I think it really has nothing to do with the singing. It’s just about how can I keep these children safe? How can I keep myself safe in a world where it’s just impossible for a black woman? And in this time period? Who’s paying attention to circumstances to feel that sense of safety? And I know that from my own experience, and I know that from the past. This from Vivian’s perspective; I know she would know that. And, and the only thing that she feels that gives her that anchoring is this, they’re not going along with it.

Well, and Ruth too, was sort of a second mother to her younger siblings, because Chloe was, as some people might call her, the dividend. She’s a surprise baby. And here’s Ruth as a very young girl trying to help take care of her two younger siblings, because mom’s working. Mom has some strange shifts sometimes and Ruth has to be the adult. So in a way, you know, mothering a tiny person is not as alien to Ruth at her age as it might be for some.

MWS

That’s true. It’s interesting because in some ways, you would expect that because she’s done it, and she’s had to do it, she would be so eager to be free of any kind of the burden of that kind of role. But I think what Ruth has never had and what and what she’s always wanted is this traditional family. And I think that Ruth has been…it’s interesting, because I think Vivian wishes she could have the opportunities that Ruth had being born a generation later. And having this mother who has who has the capacity to have these dreams materialized. I think Vivian wishes she could have that. But I think Ruth has been watching Vivian, with a sense of awe just for who she is, just for being, just for working in a hospital, just for being a mom, just for showing up every day, just you know, just for being that maternal presence. And, and it just is interesting that like, the things that you despise about yourself, other people are watching, and they actually appreciate you for it. And, and that’s how it is with that dynamic. Ruth would want to be like her mother, she would just want that that father figure there as well. And for Vivian, I think that’s the least remarkable thing that Ruth could ever aspire to do.

Which brings us to Esther, the middle sister, who, unlike Ruth, really does want to be on the stage. And she’s just not quite there. She’s the one who’s sort of singing over here when she’s supposed to be singing the other way. She has the desire; she doesn’t quite have the talent. And she’s working in a bookstore, but she finds her own path. And her journey is particularly fun (for a fellow bookseller). Yes, I’m talking about a fictional character as if she’s standing down the street from me. But I mean, it is when you think about the interchange between words and music, and words on the page. I mean, it’s all of a piece and Esther does have to step away, to find—essentially—her voice.

MWS

Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it’s interesting, I didn’t always have it, that she that she didn’t have the skills. That was a new development—very new, actually. They all have these different paths. And they’re also distinct. So like, you know, one is really gifted at it. Ruth is really, really gifted if she wanted to, she actually could do it, but doesn’t want to. And then you have Esther, who, of course, has this old resentment toward Ruth anyway, and then compounded by the fact that if she had half of Ruth’s talent, she could take off with this, but I love that the gift in her incapacity is to lead her to something that she actually can excel at. And I don’t know that she even would have envisioned that for herself that, that there was something out there that she could excel it. It’s funny, I think she…it was just so natural to her to have the gifts of writing and to have the gifts of reading and, and I don’t think she, because it was so natural, I don’t think she thought of it as anything remarkable enough to pursue. And then you know, of course, she has her her mother who would never dream of applauding that. So, the only way that she would ever get applause is through this is through this precise path. And Esther is the type of person who swears that she doesn’t need that applause and that recognition, but she does. And so she ends up trying to do what her mother wants her to do, even though if you ask her she would say she has no regard for her mother’s wishes and she has no respect for her mother’s dreams and all of that. It’s interesting. I see why she was your favorite. I really don’t think I have a favorite but see why she was because I feel like her journey was just so satisfying. She’d really been through so much. And, um, you know, I think her journey was one that you really don’t see coming. And I didn’t see it coming as the writer.

This is not a story to be rushed, I will tell you I liked just reading through. And of course, I had my soundtrack, as I explained at the top of the show, but this is not a story to rush. These women who—we’re coming to Chloe, because a lot happens for Chloe too—these women are all very distinct, and their relationships to each other are all very distinct. And yet all of them are very clearly Vivian’s daughters. It’s really great. They are clearly siblings, and they are clearly Vivian’s daughters. But this isn’t a novel to rush through. This is not, it’s not a slow read, it’s just very deliberate. It’s very deliberate. And they will tell you their stories as they tell them, and it’s really kind of a pleasure to sort of stroll through this book, which brings me to Chloe, who surprises everyone, because it turns out Chloe might have more ambition than anyone, including mom,

MWS

Right!

Surprise baby. Surprise baby has more ambition than anyone.

MWS

Right! Isn’t that amazing? And that was a surprise. It’s kind of like, when you have family who you know, you’re 45. And yet, when they see you, they still treat you—it’s not even that they still treat you like you’re 12, they still think that you’re 12, like they have not been able to parse it together in their mind. So that’s how I feel about Chloe. She’s never really viewed accurately until she meets this person who hasn’t been a part of this community. And, you know, not necessarily the most reliable voice, of course, as we learn, but at least you know, this person sees her and at least he’s, he seems good intentioned. And—I think that the draw for him, though, is just that he sees, or I think she’s been hiding behind those two sisters not inadvertently hiding behind those two sisters, and her mother, and also just the community, just the idea of having grown up with the same people and seeing the same people every day they boxed, you know, they boxed her in and she can’t get out. And then this person sees her and they kind of just, you know, she has been seeing herself too. And it just awakens her to what she’s been seeing.

The backdrop of the music and the community. And also, I will say, there may have been some snacking as I was reading On the Rooftop because there are many, many meals in Vivian’s basement. Because she’s raising money. I mean, her daughters are performing in her basement. It’s an after-hours club. Yeah. You know, yes, she’s feeding the community, but they’re paying for it.

MWS

Yeah. And that’s a thing they used to do. Absolutely. Yeah.

The underground economy is real.

MWS

Yeah, yeah.

BN
But also urban renewal is coming for San Francisco, this particular piece of San Francisco and they’re hints of it, you don’t have it sort of in your face, which I really did appreciate as I was going through, but a character would say something like, So-and-so came by and offered to buy my building, or so and so offered to buy this or so and so…and you can see the community sort of wrestling because in some cases, the money is more money than they’ve ever had in their lives. And on the other side, there are some characters who are like, Well, where am I going to go? I can’t, I can’t go, this is all I have. This is my family’s legacy, this is it. And that sort of push and pull of what happens. And ultimately, we know what happens: The city won, and the development happened. It happened in New York, and it happened in Boston, it’s happened to everywhere. It’s happened to everywhere, mostly to the detriment of brown and Black communities. And to have this sort of looming over them. And yet, you’ve still written a very hopeful novel.

MWS

Oh, that makes that makes me happy, because I do feel like that was definitely a goal. My other books are of course also about social issues, particularly ones affecting black people. And I’ll probably always do that. That’s just where my attention goes. But it again, it wasn’t conscious. It wasn’t that I sat down and thought, I need to make this book happier. Because I don’t even know how to do that. I couldn’t tell you how I did that. When I was writing this book, I think I just wanted to feel more joyful than I was feeling in 2020. And that’s when I started writing it. And I think that somehow carried over so it was like, yes, there’s this looming threat coming and it’s and it’s not to undermine the severity of the threat and the reprehensible nature of the threat. I don’t want to do that at all because we know what it did. And we know what it continues to have ripple effects, right? It’s not to say that it Oh, it wasn’t important, but it’s, it’s more to say, I know about that. I don’t want to spend my energy right now on that I want to create something that’s going to be like a solace for people who have experienced something like that. I do think some of this was conscious, because I remember thinking at one point, I remember thinking, What kind of book would I want to be reading during a pandemic? Or after a pandemic? And I just, I just didn’t want to feel any more of of what we were feeling, you know.

It was also nice to see the sisters have success. I mean, they are a draw at the Champagne Supper Club. This is not just their mother sitting around and saying, Practice your scales. They’re living in two separate worlds. There’s the world when you go home, and you’re with your sisters, and you’re in your house coat, and you’re doing your hair and you don’t have to wear a girdle. (I’m so glad you and I are not alive in an era where we have to.) I mean, can you—well, you can imagine you wrote the book—but girdling everything.

MWS

Oh, no, I’m glad that’s in our rearview.

Yeah, I’m very happy that’s in the rearview mirror. But they do they have success. They know how to operate. I mean, Vivian knows how to talk to the man that she thinks is going to represent, like, she’s, she has not just fallen off the turnip truck and decided that her daughters need to be famous. She’s like, No, they have this talent. I’m going to grow it. Let’s make sure that we have success that is ours. Yeah, there’s no point where Vivian is saying to her daughter, You’ve got to get married, you’ve got to have babies, you’ve got to do that. You’ve got to… Yes, she wants her to have singing success. But that’s not what average folks do in this community.

MWS

I know, it’s amazing. I think she’s just this just extraordinary person, which is, which is one of the reasons too. Like she has to have these blind spots, right. But I didn’t want to give her too many because I don’t want to undermine the degree of power this woman has. Maybe that’s what it is. I mean, she’s just so powerful, especially in a time where her power would have been so limited her right, her like, obvious power would have been so limited. But she has this… Vivian is a nurse, for instance, in San Francisco, which, again, is extremely extraordinary. So, she’s always had the drive that gives her the capacity to materialize these girls’ successes; it has affected her in other ways as well.

She’s doing pretty well as a single mom, a widowed mom.

MWS

Yeah, it almost feels like the girls are trying to take her backwards, because some of them at least because, you know, her vision is just so very, you know, an oppression and yeah, it’s so ahead of her time, like I really enjoyed writing that because it I think maybe for the first time, and I’m trying to think about my other books. Maybe that was one of the one of the first times where I could actually like sit with a Black woman I was writing about and have her be in that power. And it wasn’t ever taken from her.

That’s part of what makes On the Rooftop different from the other books. I mean, I love the structure where everyone gets there to sort of—pardon me—everyone gets their turn at the mic. Yeah, everyone narrates their piece. And I think it’s important to be able to sit in their heads, I mean, a close third is always fun to read. Right? Close third person is always fun to read. But I really did appreciate being able to sit… In some cases, there are some backstories that happen that I think it’s really important for each woman to be able to narrate. And also, everyone has a dude, and some of the dudes are better than other dudes. And I mean, I do love that the preacher can’t make ice. He really does love Vivian. And he sort of pushes her to say, Hey, listen, you know, you keep disappearing on me. And I can imagine for a man in the 1950s, to be able to say, Hey, listen, you keep disappearing. That feels like a radical act to say, I actually need you like, here I am. I’m widowed. And it’s very unpleasant for me. But also I really like you. I really…like he’s not playing around. He’s absolutely. He’s there in the moment. And it’s kind of nice to see this older relationship instead. Because I mean, you know, young love is always fun to see. And sometimes stuff works out and sometimes it doesn’t. But watching these two sort of circle around each other…

MWS

I thought it was so much fun to write the scene where they’re talking about whether or not they love each other. That was my favorite scene to write. Yeah, you nailed it. Like you never see it…you don’t often see it between two older people. And I liked that he was the one at the helm of it because again like Vivian—I hadn’t thought about it until this conversation—but she really does retain her power throughout. There’s nothing that comes and knocks her off. And like, and he will not either. And like you were saying earlier, it didn’t occur to her to ever bring him food. I love that she’s just like, I guess I love him. You know, I hadn’t, you know, I hadn’t thought about it. But you know, now that it’s there, okay, sure. But it’s not going to…she doesn’t need anybody. And you know, and I love that journey that she takes to realize she doesn’t need anybody, and she doesn’t even need the sense of security she thinks she needs, that she’s grasping for, you know, outside of herself, she doesn’t even need that. She has what she needs.

We’ve been talking too, a lot about how this book has changed sort of from the earlier books. I mean, structurally, you do like the multiple voices, which I appreciate the reader. But what did you learn book to book that you’ve taken into this one? So you know, was there something you learned writing Kind of Freedom that you used in The Revisioners? And then something from The Revisioners that you ultimately used in On the Rooftop in terms of craft? Because three novels, in what, six years?

MWS

Yeah, about that.

And a few others that didn’t get published. So, you’ve been doing this for more than a minute. But it does also take a little patience and a little resilience and a lot of time.

MWS

Thank you for saying that. And that’s such a good question. And it’s true, I do write, I have this really irritating habit. I publish a book. And then I spend a year working on another book, and then it doesn’t, doesn’t ever get published, like three or four times. And then I go and write the book that will get published. I don’t know if it’s part of my process, or what but anyway, I will tell you with this book. I was reading The Vanishing Half during the pandemic.

Oh, I love that book. I love that book.

MWS

Yeah, me too. I loved it, and I read it twice. And I like bought it for people not that I needed to, but I did, I thought this book takes place in Louisiana. And you know, I’m from Louisiana. And I thought this book takes place in Louisiana. But this book really could have taken place anywhere. I wasn’t as fixated on the environmental descriptions, or the surroundings, it was more about those characters, I feel like she really brought me into those characters interiors. And I just felt like I was almost being anchored by a sense of knowing those characters and by a sense of being, you know, being in the world with those characters, if that makes sense. I think when all with all good writing, it’s going to be like that, like you almost like, Oh, I have a new friend that I met who’s also going through something similar. And somehow by virtue of learning about her experience, I’m feeling supported and anchored. It felt like that kind of thing. And I thought, you know, I don’t think I’m going deeply enough into my characters. That’s what I thought, when I read that I thought, I get very, very fixated on the research. I, you know, and it’s, I was gonna say, I love research, but that’s not even true. I don’t love it, but I get really fixated on it. And I think that’s something from that I, you know, learned as a lawyer. And it’s just like a habit. And I thought, you know, I’m getting so into researching New Orleans and researching the historical aspect of whatever would have been going on at that time. And I just thought, I think I’m not using one of my superpowers, which I actually love to talk about emotions, like, if you were to come to my house, in five minutes, we’d be talking about whatever trauma you and I had been through. I love that kind of stuff. So, I thought, Why aren’t you using that? I mean, I’ve used it, I don’t want to undermine the other two books, because they’re, I think, you know, I did that with them too. But I wanted to push it a little bit more with this book in terms of just like, just like connecting with the reader on an emotional level. It’s almost like I felt like I was making the books a little bit too intellectual. I wanted my readers to experience what I felt when I was reading Vanishing Half and I was like, Oh, my gosh, I feel transported. It was a very difficult time. It was June 2020. And I feel like somehow, I’ve gone elsewhere. And I’m not, you know, I have gone elsewhere. And I feel better. And I just wanted, I just thought I’m going to focus on that this time. And I again, I’m trying to think how did I, how did I do? I tried to just go as deeply as I could, like, almost like if I’m having a conversation with someone, and they answer the question, but it’s not quite as they’re not giving me quite enough, you know, of what their childhood was like or what it was like with their mother. Like, I felt like with my characters. I felt like I just pushed them as far as they could go, you know, as far as I could go. I think it’s a different type of orientation than I had a different type of focus than I had for the first time.

Can we talk about literary influences for a second?

MWS

Sure.

I’m so delighted that you love The Vanishing Half the way I do. I mean, there’s that opening scene, we’re in Los Angeles and the sister whose been living there is in her pool. And the melancholy is so, so deep, and you’re just like, I’m in, and I’m here, but I just, that’s, the whole book is terrific. But that one particular scene…that…I carry that around.

MWS

You know, that’s one way I think, in conversation with the characters to get more out of them is to just kind of like, push them into these harrowing situations for them. And you know, I’m thinking about like, when the neighbor, half with the neighbors across the street, the black woman, yeah, like, ooh, how’s this gonna go? You know?

All of it. But okay, so now that I’ve derailed us and sent us off into Brit Bennett’s Vanishing Half because I will talk about that book any chance I get. You studied creative writing at Dartmouth as an undergrad, then you got a law degree. And then you decided, maybe not so much with this lawyer thing. I mean, you’ve always sort of been reading and writing, and so let’s talk about some of the big names who made Margaret Wilkerson Sexton who she is as a writer.

MWS

Yeah, well, you know, of course, I’ll say Toni Morrison. And that’s true. I mean, she was she was a beacon for so many of us. I’m thinking, especially when I was in high school. And I would see her on the cover of magazines. I’m thinking particularly Time Magazine, it was just…We also have Alice Walker, who would have been in at that time as well. But I think just because at that particular period, Toni Morrison was so very prominent and was coming into even greater prominence. That was the first time I thought, oh, there’s a visual there’s a path here that I can visualize. And Edwidge Danticat, I read her first novel, and I felt like oh, this is again, this is something to aspire to. And it felt like the kind of writing I would do if and when I started writing. That’s what it felt like this is the style I would want to take on, one of the styles I want to take on. I love Octavia Butler, and she was a huge influence for The Revisioners especially. Oh, totally. I love Edward P. Jones. I love Jamaica Kincaid. I’m looking at The Candy House behind you. I love Jennifer Egan. I love Elizabeth Strout. She’s another one who like-

All of her books, all of her books, the things that she does on the page. And you realize who… Olive, Again with all of her, for want of a better term, all of the Easter eggs in Olive, Again where characters just pop up again. I’m like, Oh, there you are.

MWS

I know. It was like, I just feel like she’s describing humanity. For me. It’s almost like I’m reading some kind of spiritual text. You know what I mean? Like that’s gonna be my guideposts for humanity now, like, Oh, that’s why I did that. Oh, that’s why these people would do this. Yeah, I just I learned so much just even independent of the literary from her so many. I mean, this is such a tough question, because it’s like, your favorite song. It’s like, I don’t remember. But yeah, there are so many. I’m loving the people that are coming that are coming up now. Like, you know, the more contemporary people that I look up to like Nafissa Thompson-Spires, Tayari Jones is not coming up, she’s been here forever. And I’ve read each of her books at least once.

Did you read Deesha Philyaw’s The Secret Lives of Church Ladies?

MWS

I love that book, The Secret Lives of Church Ladies, yeah. Love that book.

Yeah. Oh, wow. I mean, electrifying is not a word I love to use when I’m describing books, but it’s so appropriate for that collection of stories that it is…

MWS

That first story—

That first story alone, but the entire thing and what she does, and the entire collection. It’s so tiny. It’s amazing.

MWS

It really is. And I taught that book and my students were blown away. I taught it basically, as soon as it had come out. So, they hadn’t read it yet and they were saying, Oh my God. But that first story, it just sets the tone. It’s like Oh, this is going to be doing something completely different.

39:30

The other thing is tours thinking about Edgar Jones this morning because it’s been a minute since, I think Aunt Hagar’s Children, right was the last? All Aunt Hagar’s Children. Yeah, and that was in 2006. And I was like, Wait a minute. I mean, listen, he’s Edward P Jones, he can do whatever he’d like. But I’m kind of like maybe he’s just hanging out. I don’t know.

MWS

You know what I always say which is crazy, but I always remind myself of this. Um, you did you know that it took him six weeks to write The Known World?

I heard that.

MWS

Is it true?

I don’t know. But I hope it is because I love the idea.

MWS

And the fact he said it wasn’t that I’m some kind of phenom and I wrote it although obviously he is. But it was like I had just been thinking about it for decades. And the idea that you can, like, do a lot of the work of a story in your mind is fascinating to me. That’s another thing I’m going to try to do more of, is just, like, think about it more before I start and then I’m also really curious about like, having one person carry a narrative, just like from start to finish. I have not done that before. And also just across generations, like, you know, folding generations into one person. And just seeing how that would look. I’m just, I would like to do that the next time.

Well, I’ll follow you anywhere. So I’m just gonna take that all as signposts, signposts for whatever may come next whenever it shows up. Oh, Margaret, this was so much fun. I get to start my day with Dinah

Washington. I get to end it with you. This was excellent. Can we do this again, please?

MWS

I would love to do it again. This was amazing and such an honor truly.

Well. Thank you, thank you. And On the Rooftop is out now.