Poured Over: Marlon James on Moon Witch, Spider King

“There’s a reason why all our old stories are fantastical and mythological, and why our fairy tales are so old. Because I think there is something in these mythologies and these folklore stories that tell us something about ourselves. And we’ve always done it, we’ve always put it into fantastical to explain the real.” Marlon James returns with Moon Witch, Spider King the second installment of his Dark Star trilogy, and this time, Sogolon the witch is center stage. Marlon joins us on the show to talk about the reality behind fantasy and the fantasy behind reality, false starts, his fascination with court intrigue, WWBD? (What Would Boo Do?), handing the story over to his characters, his playlist and his podcast (Marlon and Jake Read Dead People), and more.

Poured Over is produced and hosted by Miwa Messer and mixed by Harry Liang.  New episodes land Tuesdays and Thursdays (with occasional bonus episodes on Saturdays) here and on your favorite podcast app.

Featured Books:

Moon Witch, Spider King by Marlon James

Black Leopard, Red Wolf by Marlon James

Wolf Hall by Hilary Mantel

Restoration by Rose Tremain

Behind the Beautiful Forevers by Katherine Boo

East of Eden by John Steinbeck

From this episode:

B&N: Moon Witch, Spider King is the second volume of The Dark Star trilogy. And Sogolon the moon witch is center stage in this book, she does make quite an appearance in Black Leopard, Red Wolf, but you’ve been clear from the beginning that you were going to use three volumes to tell three different versions of the same story. So when did you start working on this one? Were you working on it in tandem with Black Leopard, Red Wolf?

Marlon James: No, not at all, because one of the things I had to remember is though, even though I know what Tracker told everybody in the previous book, Sogolon does. So it’s a very easy trick to simply write something that ends up sort of accidentally in conversation with a book before, but she didn’t hear the conversation. So I almost had to forget everything Tracker did, there’s certain things where actually didn’t double check for accuracy until they four drafts in because I knew if I started using the previous book as a reference, then this just becomes a response to the previous book. And Sogolon is bigger than that, you know.

B&N: Oh yes, she is.

Marlon James: She doesn’t even know it’s testaments and Lord knows she doesn’t care. And to put myself in a frame of mind that this was the first book as opposed to the second. And what is important to her outside the context of merely proving she’s telling the truth, or more importantly, proving that Tracker is lying, is that, oh, I don’t even care about his story. And the story itself, Tracker doesn’t appear until pretty late, which just emphasizes the point that her version is has nothing to do with his. But weirdly enough, this is absolutely 100% a COVID book. Okay, I started writing it when the whole thing flared up. And it also one of the quickest books that I’ve written actually only The Book of Night Women was quicker. So it was literally 18 months. But you know, they weren’t the same. Lord knows, none of us were going through the past, the usual 18 months. So not only did I have a lot of time on my hands, but I also turned this book as an escape. When am I going to be locked in a room wearing a mask, hearing about rising body counts, or go write about witches? I’m going to escape to that fantastical world. That’s what happened. It was really my confinement book.

B&N: You also start the new book with quite a lot of court intrigue. Sogolon finds herself in the palace. But it’s a very different opening, obviously. And it’s a different world. And I think there’s a nod there to I don’t want to say social realism, per se, because it is still a court. But it is a different way for you to start this book. Did you know this is where you needed to start this story?

Marlon James: No, actually, because the real page one, it’s now on page 384. I thought the novel was starting at sea. And I was really into it because I’m like, oh my god, I get to write a sea yarn and I’ve waited so many years to do that, and I know all these ship things and I know where the mast is and, you know port and starboard. I’m going to use all of this. And that’s not what happened. My second novel, we’re started in a certain present tense, went to a flashback and realized actually rather be in the flashback. And the flashback was, you know, Sogolon’s childhood, and how she goes from house of ill repute to royal house. And in writing, I was no, this is where I want to go. But I knew I was going to get there because I also always wanted to read a royal intrigue novel because it’s no secret how obsessed I am with Wolf Hall and The Fifth Queen. It’s funny because most of my times I scream at royals. Every time I watch The Crown, at some point I have to go but these people are monsters, why am I watching this? But then I watch it. But I knew I wanted to do something far removed from how Tracker’s story begins. I’ve always been fascinated by royal intrigue, and the backbiting and skullduggery, it’s not just Wolf Hall. I also reread Rose Tremain’s Restoration, which is one of my favorite novels. And this is part of me that connected personally, although I’ve never met a royal (and who wants to, really?), but being royal adjacent, but not royal, like I have been rich adjacent but not rich. I remember all my rich friends, are like let’s go to Salt Beach to party, and I’m like, yay! And then one week later, I mean, I’m in a debt that takes me two years to pay off, so I can feel it. And that’s what she is. She is among people who she will never belong to. And I really wanted to read about how you get caught in these customs and realizing one, just how human they are, but their flaws carry consequences. Sogolon’s mistake may hurt Sogolon, but a princess’s mistake hurts dozens of people. That’s when I knew where the novel began.