Poured Over: Pierce Brown on Light Bringer

By Jenna Seery / July 27, 2023 at 6:00 am

“The fantastical worlds, the science fiction worlds offer a place where they can explore…”

Light Bringer, the 6^th installment in Pierce Brown’s Red Rising series, will bring fans back to beloved worlds and characters as the space opera saga hurtles forward. Brown joins us to talk about what other works inspired these books, how this genre can offer space for the outsiders, working toward the conclusion of the series and more with guest host, Kat Sarfas. We end this episode with TBR Topoff book recommendations from Madyson and Marc.   

This episode of Poured Over was hosted by Kat Sarfas and mixed by Harry Liang.       

Featured Books (Episode):
Light Bringer by Pierce Brown
Red Rising by Pierce Brown
Antigone by Sophocles
The Republic by Plato
Dune by Frank Herbert
The Afghan Campaign by Steven Pressfield
Open Throat by Henry Hoke

Featured Books (TBR Topoff):
Nevernight by Jay Kristoff
Hyperion by Dan Simmons

Full Episode Transcript

Kat Sarfas

Hello, I’m Kat Sarfas, forever bookseller at Barnes and Noble today we are joined by the brilliant Pierce Brown. Pierce is the best-selling author of The Red Rising series, which currently contains Red Rising, Golden Son, Morning Star,Iron Gold, Dark Age and a much anticipated and I have a right here. Light Bringer. Like I could lift it up.

Pierce Brown

Yeah, the biceps

His work has been published in 34 languages and 36 territories. And if you haven’t dived into this extraordinary saga, not quite sure what you’re waiting for. But now is the perfect time. Thank you so much for being here with us.

Thanks for having me.

So Red Rising, had to do a little date check, came out in 2014, which is just kind of like, how does that time… So fusing, we have ancient Greek and Romans with the stars. It’s a space opera with all the bloody twists and betrayal. We’ve got epic world building cinematic grandeur and perfectly paced action to keep you holding your back to the very last page. And that’s just the beginning. Light Bringer, the newest installment is book six. And it’s been on a journey for our dear Darrow. So let’s go back to the beginning. What was your inspiration to embark on this adventure?

While having read the books I think you know that there’s a lot of inspirations, but I’d say the original inspiration was the play Antigone by Sophocles. In it a woman named Antigone is trying to bury her brother, who was a rebel, and the rebels are not to be honored and if you bury the rebel, you’re supposed to be executed by the state. And I thought that really rang a bell for me like, 2500 year old story survived all this time. And I started then, thinking about it when I was on a hike. Strangely enough, I was doing a I was crazy enough, it was the 10 years ago. So I was doing 11 years ago now, actually. And I was doing mountaineering. So I was on. I was going up, and I was just wishing gravity was lighter, because it was about like, eight hours in. And I started thinking about Mars, because you could see the stars so well, and Antigone had been rolling around in my head. And I saw I started conflating the two. And when I got home, I drew on a lot of other inspirations. But that was the initial seed that I really, like, went off like a racehorse, electrocuted, just straight into the story.

You know, we think about these classics, these works that transcend time. What is it about this story? What is it about this, this very human struggle that still kind of resonates today? And then I feel like you, add space?

My theory is any form of government we have will have tyranny of some sort, with regards to capitalism, you have tyranny of debt, you know, and with regards to communism, tyranny of the bureaucracy, it seems to be a fairly consistent fact. So, you know, my way was exploring that theme and the ideals of Antigone was to draw on Plato’s Republic, which is probably my third greatest inspiration, which is how I created the caste structure, you know, the ideal form of writing a city state through democracy and so it’s very steeped in the ancient Greeks, I suppose, this book series.

But I mean, if you look around, I think that that’s sort of the, these mythological retellings I mean, now at least I mean, this obviously, this was starting this idea a while back, but it is interesting to see sort of this resurgence in the myths, and then then the sort of retellings and, and kind of taking these structures, taking these stories, taking them and kind of, you know, understanding they’re very real parallels to modern times.

The myths, because they tap into something that is inherently true about humanity or about the world and that’s why these stories last. It’s not because we have any fidelity to Sophocles or you know, we’re all fans of Plato. No, it’s because they somehow, it’s something that we constantly revisit. That’s why we are so attracted to Shakespeare as well, because there’s 13 different types of stories to tell, right? And he told them all that he told them in a great way. And so there’s something that’s always we can connect to I mean, what do we have in common with the 2500 year old society? Really? A lot actually.

It seems, things have changed and many things have stayed the same.

Same, same, same, same, but different.

Exactly. So now, the series sort of splits into sort of, I kind of call it it’s like the it’s like a before and after. So you have you have the rising and then there’s the many sort of tragedies and eventual triumph. And then you have sort of the after part, which I think is great, because I think a lot of times, you know, you read something and you know that it has the climax, you have the ending, and then you don’t really know what happens after and so you know, where you pick up in Iron Gold where things kind of start to get messy and what sort of rises from the ashes. So as you explore the consequences of Darrow’s rebellion, integrating new points of view. I will also say, increased page count.

Oh god, tell me about it.

What’s been the biggest challenge and the highest award for you.

Getting gray hair through the writing of this series, the biggest challenge? Yeah, I’d say the biggest challenge is the cognitive load of having multiple characters who are all telling the story in first person. I think often when I see stories that have multiple characters, they’re in third person or, you know, third person immediate or third person omniscient. And I think that first person makes it very difficult because you have to empathize and change your brain to try to be true to that character. But also, it’s the causation I find to be very difficult, particularly when all the planets are moving around at different paces in different speeds. This is why like, I’m aching to go to fantasy. I just want everyone to be on a landmass, one landmass.

And you make all the rules.

Exactly, yeah, I’m like, because I’ll do something. And then I’ll be like, Oh, crap, Mercury is often closer to Earth than Mars is. Even though it’s two, you know, two planets away, or one planet away through Venus. But it’s often closer, because of how fast it orbits. And anyway, that’s ridiculous thing. But I’d say the cognitive load of getting characters certain places, it’s often what George RR Martin talks about holding him up is how does he get the Guardian back from the east while maintaining the storylines of the other characters? Because it’s a long voyage. And that was his what he called his Gordian knot. And so I think that that’s probably the most difficult thing. And I forgot the other part of your question. The reward, the reward is a more three dimensional view on the world. It feels more real to me than it was just through Darrow’s eyes. And there’s such an advantage through I mean, he’s a god of war. You know, he’s also the main character, so it’s hard to kill your main character if he’s your narrator, right? And so…

Is it. I feel like people have done it but yes, go on.

People have done it, people have done it. But not much approbation, the audience sometimes rebels against that, I’d say that it’s the ability to have people with different worldviews than the main character, the protagonist, because it allows me as an author to show the reader that Darrow’s worldview is not my worldview. He’s a character, just like all of the other characters or characters and then seeing how they react to Darrow’s actions, how they perceive his triumphs is, like I said, the way of painting a more three-dimensional picture, but more so this entire latter series. The first three are the archetypal rise of a hero, a plucky rebellion, grim, plucky, rebellious, with a lot of gallows humor, but a plucky rebellion, nonetheless. And then the books from Iron Gold on, four through seven, are more of a meditation on the things that Darrow has done. And because we have four POV characters in Iron Gold, one of them is Darrow, or archetypal hero, and then three people who have a bone to pick with Darrow, from all different parts of society. And so it really is an indictment. But they all indicted Darrow. But the book itself is an exploration of that indictment, and to see how their interaction with the world and with his cause stands the test of time, and also their own evolution. And so it’s my way of exploring the world and also exploring the repercussions of archetypes.

That’s really interesting, what you’re saying about being able to kind of come out and like this, you know, point of view is not my point of view. My next question is, is the fans is, you know, and the reception that you get, you know, when you’re in a series, and you’re this deep, and you have so many people who are so committed to it, I’m going to talk about your howlers for a little bit, but also this whole idea of, you know, Tik Tok and people again, you know, rallying around these books, and exploring them and dissecting them. And it’s kind of wonderful to see, I mean, you know, obviously, like anything, there’s going to be positives and negatives to that, but it’s really interesting to have the community of readers being able to kind of come together. And I often say that I envy this, like, from when I was younger, like I would have loved to have a community of people to sort of bounce ideas off of and just kind of being able to talk about this book, talk about the story. Talk about, you know, again, you’ve many points of view, you know, and kind of being able to dissect that and where these people are coming from and all of that you have an amazing fan base. And I mean, I think that these are people who have kind of, you know, started at the beginning or maybe they’ve come you know, come in, I’m sure you know, you want to give characters the ending they deserve the ending that that you feel like the story goes, how does that reception when you’re in when you have people who are so I think enthusiastic, so in, you know, entrenched in a series, does that affect your writing at all?

Yeah, I’d say it’s why the books slowed down. I’m extremely honored to have the fan base. It’s the wild, wacky and come from all ends of the political spectrum, I think, but it is one of the more beautiful things with the reading community these days. And I also would have loved to have that when I was younger. But at the same time would I then had needed the catharsis of creating characters, there are so many good things about having such an avid fan base like that. But I do feel as though if you read or partake or lurk in that fan base, you know, if I’m going on to the Reddit, if I’m going into the discord, I can’t do it, except sparingly. And I have to do it. Like announcing, I can’t read from the sidelines, because you get haunted by critiques. I mean, how many compliments have you forgotten in your life? How many insults have you forgotten? None. And, and writers are inherently sensitive creatures, right? It’s empathetic. It’s empathy that allows us to go into the minds of other characters and explore these things, because we’re curious. And so there’s a greater sensitivity there. So I think you have to be really wary about that. You know, there I talked about the cognitive load that slowed down the series. But also, you know, the expectations, you don’t want to violate the earlier books and the love of those earlier books by changing and by ruining them. But at the same time, I have no interest in repeating something I’ve done before. So you kind of got to reinvent the wheel each time without making it from a disparate substance. So it’s like, how do you surprise the reader without violating that early contract? Right in the fury that if you violate that contract is apocalyptic, so it’s just the nature of fans who love it so much. So the nature of passion is vitriol. So it’s something to be very wary of. So I’m very conscious of it. But at the same time, if you democratize creativity, you homogenized it. So I can’t listen to the fans. I can’t give them what they think they want. And it’s not that I’m superior. It’s not that I know better. It’s that it’s my story. And so I can’t listen to it whatsoever. Because if I do that, it’s going to feel different. Yeah, that’s not something I’m smart enough to balance of listening and then making it and tricking people into thinking that it was my idea has to be my idea. Otherwise, it’s going to feel different. And so if there’s things you don’t like, it’s my story, you know, sorry. Like, the same guy doing it. The same things he likes, you know, and so that’s all I can say about it. I wish it can live up to every expectation everyone has, I really do because I love, people love these characters. And I have my own characters that I just adore. Ones that both ones I’ve created both ones I’ve read, you know, my childhood friends are populated with, you know repopulated by like Edmund Dantes and Luke Skywalker. You know, Edmund Dantes hasn’t been done wrong, but other characters have.

I definitely think that and it’s interesting, because I always, I ask this question a lot, because I think that I think that inherently, you do struggle, because you have, you have to be true to the characters, you have to be true to yourself, you have to be true to like, where the story’s going. And inherently, you know, by doing that, you are going to upset people, but I think I but part of me again, I love that I love I can’t, I can’t tell you when I go on these tik toks and the people are so angry, and I think to myself, like, but that means you loved it. Because if you’re this that crazy if this passionate throwing books across it, you know, like screaming from the rooftops, you finished it, like you’re like you’re coming back to it. So it’s like, obviously, it’s for the court. And that’s honestly, I think the work that you and so many amazing fantasy writers today are doing so beautifully. It’s striking those chords and sort of, you know, setting that to learn and love.

Yeah, love does not mean pleasing someone else. Are we attracted to people that are needy and want to please us all the time? No, no, we want push back. Yeah, we want the hard moments really. Just because where it’s respect comes from in differences stuff. Something’s always pleasing.

I mean, it’s like the idea of like, having a yes person. Nobody really wants to be told yes.

Very, very quickly, very quickly. Yeah. Well, people look at it, look at it in relationships, while people say they want is not what they’re attracted to. Oh, no, really?

No, no. And see, it all comes full circle. I feel like we’re in this and I talk about this a lot. It’s particularly like in house I do kind of feel like we’re in this this like amazing golden age of fantasy and like sci fi, like, it’s just, there’s so much you know, there’s so many things that are being written that are just, it’s just amazing and to see like, authors building on other on other things that have been done creating new worlds, like for me, sci fi Fantasy has always been a safe place. It’s kind of, it’s so encouraging to see just other communities look at and I kind of do see, you know, this this sort of the shift in science fiction and fantasy where it is this sort of home for maybe, I mean, it’s I think it’s always been home for the outsiders but also a home for like the LGBTQIA community and you know, kind of seeing this really safe space. I also love to talk about this because I always think to myself, like, what is it? What is it about fantasy? What is it about science fiction? And I feel like I’ve gotten answers where it’s like, well, you know, you can use it as, like a metaphor to kind of talk about struggles, you know, or you can use it to create a universe in which you want to live in, you know, in a world where you want to live in. So I think you’ve done you’ve done a little bit of A and B and so on. But why do you think like, this has become, you know, this sort of, I hate to, you know, talk about genre in this way. But that these, these books have what they mean to the other.

I think it’s the idea of worlds where the acceptance of people who are different for, like LGBTQ or women, it’s a different baseline. It’s not the difference that is often focused on. So for instance, in my books, I focus on the caste system, the eye colors being representative of the myriad differences that humans have used to judge each other throughout time. It’s not meant to stand in for sexuality, it’s not meant to stand in for race, it’s meant to stand in for difference. So I think it’s a concept of a different baseline. So the subject one can be talked about without people counter arguing based on their conceptions of this world, right, because our egos are very much involved in this world. So when someone gives you a viewpoint you disagree with you have an identity crisis, it really is existential. And so people’s political leanings are far less likely to change in this world than they are to sympathize with the Rebel Alliance, perhaps in Star Wars. And so I think One: you come in without your armor, Two, I think that women, LGBTQ people who have been disenfranchised or gate kept for millennia,

while their sexual orientation or their gender might be an intrinsic part of who they are, it is not all who they are. And so in our world, it’s hard to sometimes get past someone prejudging you and making that your entire identity. I think it’s the fantastical worlds, the science fiction worlds offer a place where they can explore all the other parts, through characters who are judged based on other things, the other aspects of their character, they’re literally that 99.9% of who they are as opposed to the label. And so it’s wish fulfillment, wish fulfillment is often misunderstood. It’s not meant really as the audience wish fulfillment that’s like a Hollywood notion that has kind of like popped in popular consciousness. It’s really about the wish fulfillment of the main character, the main character getting to fulfill their wish, like Harry Potter getting to lead this ordinary life and be exceptional, Luke Skywalker, to fly amongst the stars and be a warrior like his father, a jedi like his father, that’s wish fulfillment, it’s best when it matches up with the audience. And so I think science fiction and fantasy, particularly with as many female and LGBTQ writers that we have now, are able to pair up really well with that community. And also progressive writers who are like, like my generation, which is, like my default is much different. My baseline is much different than the baby boomer generation, for instance. And so we’re writing sci fi in a different way. Because we’re taking things for granted. We’re not focusing on these, like really kind of banal allegories that are very transparent. We’re not preaching our political opinions so much as we’re just creating the world that we think makes sense.

No, that’s beautiful and that is, I think, that is the vibe. That is definitely it.

You know when boomers try to be woke? And, like, just watch, the new Sex in the City, like my god, like, it is the most cringy thing I’ve ever seen in my life. And it’s, it’s because they’re like, fetishizing race, they’re fetishizing people’s orientation. And then they’re wearing it as a badge of honor. The whole point is not treat people differently.

Yes. And I think that is something where again, and I think I love seeing it in this in this space, where it’s like it is just, we can create this world. We can kind of just live in it. And we can sort of be more than one thing. And I love it. I personally I can’t tell you, I can’t say enough. How much I love that. The science fiction world. The fantasy world has become the safe space because I feel like it definitely wasn’t always the safe space. I think it’s just really amazing to see and it’s just it’s just a great time. It’s a great time to be reading science fiction fantasy, you’ve expanded the Red Rising universe with a prequel and the Sons of Ares graphic novels. Graphic Novels are also my thing. So I gotta I have to I had to give a shout out. It’s a fabulous collaboration and sort of adds more to the canon of your story of these novels. And what made you jump over to the sort of comic medium to explore these stories specifically, was there anything where you know I mean, they could have been prequel novels, but you didn’t.

If I do prequel novels, I want to do it in a very intentional way and have my complete focus. I mean, the difficulty is brainpower. I’m a very singular individual, my choo choo train just goes one direction. And so graphic novels were a way for me to explore. Because it’s such a collaborative effort, it’s a way for me to explore. I wanted to see Fitchner, his story, and I also didn’t want to explore territory that I might want to explore later on. I don’t want to write a book about Fitchner. But I thought that it was very fun kind of mythic, there’s something very mythic, and heroic about the graphic novel medium. Obviously, we explore our own demigods in the form of superheroes. And so I wanted to explore the demigod in the Red Rising world, Ares, in the same medium, it’s as simple as that. It seems to be the medium that would fit that story the best, and it’s a mythic, mythic origin. That is somewhat uncannily similar to Darrow’s. And also, with the collaboration, I was able to have other people help pull the wagon, as opposed to me really getting it getting in there. And that that was a lot of fun, but very different experience.

I love different mediums. I think when you can come to a universe, you can come to a world and you can as I think, a lot of us, to me, I look at like graphic novels, and it’s just it’s the same as like audiobooks, how do you want to take in your content? Do you want to listen to it? Is that what excites you? Do you want to sort of visualize, do you need it visualized? Like, is it that I want to visualize it myself that like, I’m gonna do it, I’m gonna do that. So it’s just really interesting. And I think it’s fascinating, and anyone should check it out, because it’s wonderful. So you announced the seventh and final, and I have question marks around that.

Final. I need to spread my wings and fly away.

There we go. We heard it. So you announced last year at the San Diego Comic Con, Red God. That’s book seven. And again, the series has been with you for a while. What kind of emotions are sort of swirling around you as you embark on this final chapter?

Anxiety dreams of what comes next.

Okay, anxiety.

Anxiety, anxiety. It’s strange. It hasn’t quite hit me yet. I’m 50 pages into writing it. And it’s a lot of the work, a lot of the internal work of the characters was done in the last book, the stage is set, so in Light Bringer, everyone has the culmination of their personal emotional Odyssey. So the stage is set, the players have gone from cookie dough to cookies. And to use the Buffy the Vampire Slayer analogy, it now it’s just fun to a degree, still, horrific anxiety. But I would say that, for me writing a book is so Herculean an effort, I almost can’t even forecast the emotions that are coming. And they’ll come at different times. Particularly when I realize like I’m having my last scene with the character, or their last chapter, I know the end of this books will be really hard. And I also know that the first the first pages of book were really hard, you don’t want to make it so precious, that you ruin the story by doing that. You don’t want it to be so epic, that it feels impersonal. You don’t want it to feel so predetermined that doesn’t feel inspired moment to moment. And so, as you can tell with my slow speech pattern, I’m still figuring it out.

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to like unlock, you’re like what am I feeling?

Did you see my existential crisis just happen?

I did a little bit and I feel guilty.

Nah, it’s all good. What’s that old saying from Joseph Campbell— the cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek. I’ve always feared I’ve always feared ending this series. But as you can tell by me doing three books, and then six books and now seven books, but it’s come time. There’s other stories I want to explore. And I think that each of these books has been different. Each one has had its own theme. And I feel as though it’s finally culminating into a series wide theme. And so it’s the natural conclusion, anything beyond this, I’ll struggle to find new territory to explore.

So my next question was gonna be, who are you going to miss the most? And you kind of were saying a little bit like how it’s not gonna hit you until you write that.

It’ll be Darrow, oh, man, actually, will it be? There might be— might be Sevro or Darrow or maybe Victra? Yeah, I think it’s because these characters serve as outlets often and Darrow’s— their age will match mine when I complete this. And that is entirely intentional.

It came full circle for you.

I’m all about circularity. So I feel as though those two characters are very split sides of my personality. And so I’ll probably miss them the most.

Ah, well, you did say you gotta spread your wings, you gotta embark on new things. You did mention the rigidness, I would say a little bit of, you know, when you’re writing more science, science fiction, to stay into some parameters. So are you thinking of writing more fantasy? Is that something that you can see on the horizon?

Most things I’m attracted to will always be hybrids, I think. But yes, I’m interested in fantasy, particularly I’ll probably, in books, often there used to stay within the Sci Fi-fantasy genre. I’m much more interested in writing fantasy at this point that I am writing sci fi though.

So the world building in the series, it’s pretty incredible. And if you want readers to sort of fully embrace or fully sort of immerse themselves, you know, you need to deliver what you do. So if you though, were to write in any other fantastical world, where would you go?

You know, when I was younger, I would have said Dune. But I think you can see the Dune influence on my books. So I think I’ve explored that to now. I think that there’s an attraction, I’m very interested in medieval sagas and in mythology, so playing within Tolkien’s world would be a lot of fun. I think the first or second age would be a lot of fun. It’s very, very high language, which is nice, a lot of commas. I like that. But at the same time, at the same time, I think that that would also feel like a constraint. So I think that another world that would be really fun to write in would be like I’d love to do like an r-rated Harry Potter.

I think you’re in good company there.

I would have a very dark Harry Potter

There’s a lot, there’s a lot that you can go off of that but no, you see the Dune influence which I think is something— I kind of love that people are coming to it new obviously the movie, it’s wonderful. But yeah, having people kind of you know, come to the book. Tolkien. How do you…

We were, when I was taking Red Rising out many times, I’ve been developing this for TV, it was so annoying. I was competing against Dune for various things like because it was getting made and everyone knew was getting made. And so I was getting Nos because Dune was coming out like it was written in the 60s, its my turn.

There is space for us all.

Yeah, that’s not how Hollywood works.

No, not at all. But that’s how the book community works.

I couldn’t even be mad because it’s like Herbert and I’m like, Denis Villeneuve, who I desperately wanted for Red Rising, doing Dune, I get why you’d rather do that. You know, I get it. Dammit.

Dammit. But it is it is interesting to see and I will say I mean, I love sort of this fantasy. I think it is really great to see science fiction and I always tend to like tell people you know, there’s obviously there’s a difference. Science fiction, you know, real like the science in the science fiction are the people who put more science in.

Yeah, quite a big difference between hard and soft sci fi.

Um, no, if I do need to go off in like a tangent on the different types of fantasy and then you start to see eyes glaze over. And that’s always my favorite part. Like, would you like me to talk about the Second Age? I think everyone just leaves the room. But so if you would like to write in that space, I think that’s I think that would be…

I think it’s high time we see a story about a morally conflicted Balrog, you know, he has all this dark power, dark energy. His heart is made out of flame and he has a furnace inside, a furnace within burns, but he’s just would rather sculpt mountains into the effigies of people from the First Age and doesn’t really want to go to war anymore. He’s tired of Morgoth, he’s just not that invested.

So now we have the synopsis for your next book. So that’s great. So you’re welcome.

Yeah, yeah, the Balrog of Peace.

Um, so this has been wonderful. I always like to kind of close things out. I’m always looking for good book recommendations, despite the fact that I’m literally consumed, but I got to ask you, what are you reading now? Or because I know sometimes you get into it, you’re writing, you’re doing other things, or what was the last book that you read that truly that truly like, you couldn’t stop? You couldn’t stop talking about.

I really don’t think you’re gonna be interested in what I read.

I am interested. We are all interested.

I’m so niche. Okay. Last great book I read was The Afghan Campaign by Steven Pressfield. It was a reread, it’s Alexander’s campaign in Afghanistan after crashing the Persian Empire, and the similarities to more modern wars in Afghanistan. And yeah, it’s very niche. Steven Pressfield wrote Gates of Fire which was his most successful book, but I you know, last like two years, all I’ve been reading is all I’ve been reading his books have sold like 10,000 copies.

I’m clearly, this is my brand.

Steven Pressfield is a very successful author. But a lot of these other books, like there’s this great series called this, you know, this is exactly why I should recommend these books because not enough people are reading them. There’s a great, great author by the name of Christian Cameron, who writes about the ancient Greeks in military escapades in ancient Greece, my favorite is called Killer of Men by air, about a character named Arimnestos, back in the Battle of Marathon way back when we’re talking like 490s, 490s BC, people, when the first Persian invasion came, not the one. Yeah, no, not the one to 300, the one before that.

People, not the 300 one.

Before that, it’s where we get the word marathon, the Battle of Marathon, the Persians landed, and the Athenians called all their allies to join them and no one came, except for about like 500,000 men led by Arimnestos. This contribution was so significant to the Athenian culture that the only other heroes put on the pnyx, the were their congressional body of athletes, and that the only other the only people on there who were not Athenians, were the Boeotians. And they’re these like Hayseed farmers who are like right smack dab between Thebes and Athens, and the Boeotians came and the Athenians honored them and that came to their aid a long time later when the Thebes were being thugs. And anyway, it’s a great book series. There’s like six of them, Arimnesots is the leader from from Boeotia and he is vicious and rage-filled man, I love it.

I always say this is stranger than fiction, things that you don’t believe are real and this is why it’s important. Healthy diet people. You get your fantasy, you get your regular fiction; you get your nonfiction, you get your history. Let’s all let’s all come together here.

Together. Honestly, I honestly Yeah, like maybe I I think for like two years solid. I’ve just read like Military Historical fiction. So I think I need to broaden my horizons. Can you recommend me anything?

I can. You’re West Coast, right? Yes. So I’m going to recommend, which is the book I’ve been recommending to everyone right now a book called Open Throat by Henry Hoke. Okay, it is about a mountain lion. P 22. Which I’m assuming you might be familiar with.

I’ve seen P 22 in the flesh. He scared the hell out of me.

It is essentially, they don’t ever really say if it’s P 22. But if you know you know kind of thing, okay. It’s about a mountain lion who lives under the Hollywood sign and sort of just incredible you know, it’s taken from the point of view of the mountain lion which and I will tell you I am not generally a fan of animal like narrator’s, that’s not really my thing.

Oh, you’re gonna have a hard time when book seven.

But no, no, I make exceptions. I make plenty of exceptions. And this is one of them. And it is just fabulous. It’s kind of almost told in verse. It’s like 100 pages, it’s like more of a novella. It’s like 160 pages I’ve literally read it twice already because like you finish it and then you kind of are like, I have to go back like I need to, did I miss something? Like did I miss something but like, I want to kind of devour it again and I and that is that is a pun, if you only read the book.

I was staying away from the pun, it could be a euphemism.

It is a little bit. It’s got an ending where it’s just like, you know, the end of the book and you’re kind of it’s where you think it’s gonna go one way and then it doesn’t go the way you expect. But it turns out what we were talking about before, it’s kind of the way it had to be.

Turns out, it’s not actually mountain line. It’s up Jared Leto doing method acting. I don’t want to be this good at calling, you know, twists in the story. It’s a curse. I can’t read anything without guessing. You know? Yeah. So I’m sorry about ruining the ending forever now.

No, no, no, no, I think I think it’s still it’s still worth the read. You know, I always say people, I think I read a lot of fantasy. And so it’s like a lot of the books I read, yours included, you’re gonna kill me with 800 pages.

Yeah, so I’m imagining you paid full price for Open Throat, right? They are the same price. Yeah, I think I need to write 150-page novels from now on.

And so I will tell you when I get the chance to read a novella. And that’s another thing I think I really love when even within like these hulking sagas, every now and then they’re like, Oh, I’m gonna throw in a novella. And I’m like, that’s okay. That’s okay. I need a break. Take a break. I’m happy to read a little 160 page novella. But I will tell you from and I’ve got my old copy right here. Old beat up, Red Rising.

What the hell is wrong with me? Yeah. Like, my mentor is like this old lawyer. Old Hollywood lawyer. He’s like, a really enigmatic character. He’s like, are you trying to make less money? Just like, dude, I don’t know why. Yeah, four times the effort for four times a bigger book. You know, I asked myself this question, too. And I’m just like, why?

But I will say, I mean, sometimes you gotta, I mean, when you’re in it, you’re in it. And then you want those pages.

It’s great, I’m sure.

But it’s true. Sometimes, you know, you think those extra pages equates to an extra five minutes with that character an extra five minutes in that universe and that’s everything.

So yeah, my book was being listed on Audible for some reason, like as like 13 hours long. And I had quite a few upset fans by that. And it’s not, it’s like 28 hours long or something like that.

That’s a speed reader. That’s really fast.

13 hours is still like, that’s a hefty tome.

It’s true. You go to a movie, it’s only two and a half hours, maybe it’s 3. 28 hours.

My poor readers.

Your wonderful readers. All right. With that, Pierce, thank you again. Light Bringer, the sixth book in the Red Rising series is out now.

It’s awesome. Read it, buy it, love it. Buy two, buy three. I can’t count, buy 10. All right.