Poured Over: Kayla Min on The Fetishist

By Jenna Seery / January 9, 2024 at 6:10 am

The Fetishist by Katherine Min is a darkly humorous and provocative novel of love, revenge, and identity published after her death in 2019. Min’s daughter, Kayla Min Andrews, joins us to talk about her mother’s work, taking on the task of finishing and publishing this novel, creating and continuing a legacy and more with host, Miwa Messer.

This episode of Poured Over was hosted by Executive Producer Miwa Messer and mixed by Harry Liang.                

New episodes land Tuesdays and Thursdays (with occasional Saturdays) here and on your favorite podcast app.        

Featured Books (Episode):
The Fetishist by Katherine Min
Secondhand World by Katherine Min
Madame Bovary by Gustave Flaubert
Another Country by James Baldwin
Holding Pattern by Jenny Xie
All Grown Up by Jami Attenberg
Conversations with Friends by Sally Rooney

Full Episode Transcript
Miwa Messer
I’m Miwa Messer, the producer and host of Poured Over and Kayla Min Andrews is here actually to talk about her mom’s novel. And you might be wondering, wait a minute what? Well, The Fetishist is not only a very special book, it’s also got, well, not your average publication story. So why don’t we just start there? Yeah, don’t you think Kayla?

Kayla Min Andrews
Absolutely. My mom started working on The Fetishist shortly after her debut novel was published, Secondhand World, her debut novel came out in 2006. And shortly after that, she started working on The Fetishist, and she was working on The Fetishist until 2014, which is when she received her cancer diagnosis. And she claims that happened in the oncologist’s office, which I believe she’s a very, you know, she was a very decisive person. So basically, she found out her time was limited, she found out, you know, much more limited than she had thought it was going to be, terminal cancer diagnosis, and just decided, you know, what, the artifice of fiction doesn’t work for me anymore. I want to write nonfiction essays, I want to figure out where I’ve been and who I am. And I want I want to totally change my focus in writing. And also, I think she wanted to, you know, create new work rather than polish up and promote something she had already created. So no, in her time was limited. She completely stopped working on that novel, even though at that point she had had, she had a complete draft, and she was kind of just polishing, she was a bit of a perfectionist. And, you know, I think she wasn’t ready to share the draft yet. But I was aware that the draft existed. And then when she was like, I’m done with fiction, not working on that novel anymore. And she literally did not work on it another moment after that, you know, it was a surprise. But it also felt it felt like the supportive thing to do was to encourage her and to be excited about personal essays that she was writing. And so I never said like, what about The Fetishist? And let me see the draft. And why don’t you, you know, I just kind of followed her lead. So I was aware that it existed and she had sent me pieces and chapters while she was working on it. But starting in 2014, it was a whole different project for her writing-wise, and plus she was dealing with the cancer and so it just kind of, you know, life happens quickly until she died in 2019. And that’s the point at which I ended up with her laptop. You know, I inherited her laptop after she died. And so I kind of knew it was on there, but I didn’t open it up right away. But I eventually did, because we did an event with MacDowell. So my uncle Colin men set up a fellowship with MacDowell because mom loves doing residencies that MacDowell, and she did many of them over the years, and got a lot of her writing done. She would say she made her most the most progress when she was at artists residency is where you get, you get a cabin in the woods, and you get to just write all day with no interruptions and then in the evenings, you get to share your work and progress with other writers. So that was very important to her creative process. So my uncle had this great idea that to establish a fellowship in her name with MacDowell was her favorite artists residency. And then we had an event to celebrate the first year of that fellowship. And my uncle was like, You should read something of your mom’s at that event. We ended up having to do it on Zoom, because of the pandemic, I was trying to decide something to read for that event. And I, like my stepdad was like, there was this chapter from her novel that I remember was really funny. And I was like, oh, yeah, and so then I have to go through her laptop, find it. Everybody, once you read the book, you’ll know which chapter it was.

I have a pretty good idea. Yes, yes.

KMA

The fireworks, the thesis statement. So I read that chapter at this small MacDowell event on Zoom, thinking like, well, it really sucks that she, you know, she died, and this novel will never be published, but at least I get to share this with a small number of people who will appreciate it. So the silver lining, you know, and then after I read it, so many people in the audience were like, Oh, my God, I felt so seen by that, you know, like, Asian American women in the audience, and everybody was just like, Oh, I’m gonna read the whole novel, when can I read the whole novel, and so it kind of got me and my family thinking we weren’t sure if it was gonna work out, but ended up ended up deciding to try and reaching out to some of mom’s friends and Cathy Park Hong, who was at that MacDowell event, offered to pass the manuscript onto her agent, and that’s how that happened.

But you still had to do a little assembly work. It sounds like the files that you had to go through. weren’t necessarily in the order, you might have thought, right, like there was a little bit of sleuthing that you had to do. I mean, the sentences were there. Clearly the story was there clearly. Just maybe not in the order that we’re reading them in, right.

KMA

There was some sleuthing to find the most recent draft, her files were very messy, which is characteristic of her. Yeah, so there were a lot of files with different names, and it ended up being easy because I just looked for the one that had been opened most recently, it took me a while to figure that out because I’m not very tech savvy. Yeah. And then it was just like, Oh, right. It’s the one that was opened in March 2014, just right before she got her diagnosis, and I was like, she literally never opened the file again, after she got her cancer diagnosis. You know, I knew she wasn’t really working on it after but I didn’t realize you just literally never touched it again. Yeah, and you know, it was a complete story front to end, there was one scene where there was a comment in the Word document, like she left a comment to herself being like, Oh, I’ll finish the scene later. So there was one scene where it was literally like, one scene was not finished. And then when I ended up working with Sally Kim, so kept Sally Kim at Putnam was like the perfect person to take on this project. And then so when she read the manuscript, as is she had some ideas. And she and I talked, and I also had a couple of ideas. And so then we ended up making a plan for some, yeah, some light edits, which I did, I got to do myself kind of taking something that was already great and making it shine even more, it was more adding, then a little, a little bit of subtracting a little bit of rearranging, but a lot of adding actually to sort of draw out certain arcs. And I had an idea for a scene at the end. And Sally had some great ideas of things that would just, yeah, tease out certain parts and make them shine more brightly. So that was the editing process.

What’s it like the living in your mom’s head? It’s a different way of being with your mom. I mean, we’re talking about your parent, like, this is not just a, hey, let’s make a shopping list. And we’ll figure out how to, you know, make dinner for 25 people this is, okay, I’m in the back of your brain. You’re not here to give me feedback. You kind of have to read your mom’s mind.

KMA

Yes, it was an intense process for me. It was nerve wracking, definitely first and intimidating. What if I make it worse? Or what if a scene that I add stands out as inferior? Or you know, just like all kinds of insecurities and is this what you want, would you want this? When should you be happy with this? And, but that was more like before I started and then once I started, it did feel sort of like, yeah, like she was there with me, I don’t know, like a continuation of the relationship. She and I had a particularly close, maybe kind of unusually close relationship where, like, she would always share her books and progress with me. And she would often read them out loud to me and discuss them. We would read other books out loud together, you know, when I was a kid, but then continuing into my adulthood, like through high school, and even after I moved out of the house, but like, if they came back to visit, we might read a short story aloud together. It was lots of reading out loud together, and then talking about the books that we read together, or watching movies together, discussing them. So talking about stories together and talking about characters and talking about what works or doesn’t work. It’s just something we did something we’ve shared. So well. Like I was tapping into that energy when I was doing the edits. And I was kind of imagining, you know, like, I’d write a paragraph and then I’d imagine her reading it or I’d imagine her reading it to me, right? Imagine a conversation, you know, like, oh, that adjective seems a little lackluster, and then I’ll change it. And it’s like, obviously, it was just me in the room, but it felt a little bit like her and I in the room.

Part of why I’m smiling right now though, is you are reading like Madame Bovary and War and Peace with your mom as a teenager. And I just I love the idea of the two of you just digging in hard on novels that some people might think of as inaccessible, right? And you’re just like, nope, reading with my mom. It’s like you had your own mini book club. And I really, I just, it makes me laugh to think that you guys had this really great opportunity. But, you know, your mom was clearly challenging you. It’s not like she was reading at your grade level. She was saying, okay, kid, guess what, you get to meet me at mine. And I was sort of wondering how that felt for you. Because not every kid gets that, right. Like, not every kid gets that. They’re being pushed to, you know, work a little harder. And they’re thinking, Oh, this is really boring. Why am I reading this, but you clearly got a lot out of it.

KMA

I loved it. Yeah, I think part of it was where I grew up. So I grew up in a very small town in central New Hampshire, pretty isolated, and just not a ton going on. You know, I mean, it was good in other ways, but you know, just not a ton of like cultural or artistic events happening in this small town in central New Hampshire. And, and she would say like that she was worried that I wasn’t being challenged at school. And I think that’s accurate. A lot of the time I was kind of bored at school or not being pushed or not being challenged. And so it was always exciting to read these books out loud with her and to discuss them and it was a source of intellectual and artistic and just exciting, an exciting way to think about the world and it was challenging in a way that often school wasn’t.

Do you have a favorite book from what I’m going to keep calling your book club with your Mom, do you? Was there one that just made you really Oh, wow, this is it.

KMA

It’s hard to just choose one. I mean, because we like, because we read classics. So I definitely remember, you know, Madame Bovary or Mrs. Dalloway. So I remember some of the classics, that really blew my mind. But then we also read things that were coming out at the time. You know, Lorrie Moore short stories, or no, yeah, it was, it was kind of an omnivorous book club. So I think there were times when mom was curious. And we’d read a Stephen King or we’d read, I think we read a couple of Hannibal novels. So it was a little bit of everything, you know.

But essentially, this is a kind of, not necessarily graduate school education. But it’s a different kind of education in literature, in words, it’s not the standard stuff we were doing in high school English, even if you were at a school where you had AP classes, or you’re really approaching it from the point of view that isn’t necessarily an average point of view, right? You have access to a different kind of experience of reading. And part of why I’m putting this up, you didn’t have any kind of background, you were essentially doing this because you wanted to see your mom’s book out in the world. It’s not like this was suddenly your thesis project that you were finishing an MFA for. But you came to this with a genuine love of story, a genuine love of books, right? And this connection with your mom, it’s a really great combination, but it’s rare.

KMA

I didn’t fully realize how rare it was until much later in my life. You know, you’re a kid, you just think like, well, this is what’s happening. It took me a while into my adulthood to realize, yeah, that it was so unusual. And it was so special, and that other people might find it interesting. And that it was really unusual. And I just thought of a favorite because I see James Baldwin behind. So I remembered that Another Country, I remember us reading that out loud together. And me being a teenager in the small town in New Hampshire and just being like, wow, like, these cool artists with their glamorous friendships, and they’re just in the city making art and trying to survive. And I just remember thinking, that seems so cool.

That opening chapter to where Rufus is walking around Times Square, like it’s still, it’s still a standout for me. And I, I must have been a teenager, the first time I read that I can’t honestly, I don’t remember how old I was. But it was definitely a library copy. Small Town, Massachusetts, not that different from small town, New Hampshire. And when you find those moments, but also the reading out loud piece is really important. Like even if you’re just writing copy, right, you need to get the rhythm of the words and the rhythm of the sentences and the characters and so much is revealed to you as you’re sort of going through it. And reading out loud, right? And I just I love the idea of you and your mom not just chewing through the material, but also taking the time with the sentences like language matters, right?

KMA

Oh, yes. And she loved the language. Sometimes she would pause and be like that passage or like, that paragraph was amazing, you know, or sometimes she would literally pause and write it down. She would copy, you know, some lines into her notebook or, you know, should reread the passage. It was like when the language was really was really great. She would notice and she would point it out and she would sometimes copy it.

And your mom, she’s really precise in her language. She’s really, really precise. Which is a treat to read.

KMA

She calls herself a word wanker.

Okay, that’s hysterical. That’s really funny. But it shows and obviously, we’re spoiler free in this conversation, because there’s a lot that happens in The Fetishist. I think there are also going to be people who come to the book with assumptions based on the copy. And based on the reviews that they might see. And what I’m hoping is that they see the cover, because I love the jacket on this book. I love the jacket on this book so much. And that they say, huh, it’s also very short. It is a fast read. The characters are fantastic. We’re cutting back and forth between Present day Baltimore, present day San Diego and there’s some stuff that happens in Florence. This is the thing I was not expecting. There’s a very nice ending to this book because I wasn’t entirely sure. So it’s a little bit of a satire. It’s a little bit of a thumbing the nose at conventions and some other things but has a really nice ending. And we don’t always get that in a book that’s trying to make a point, right, like your mom was doing a lot on many different levels, with the fetish, all of which I appreciate. But I really liked her characters, even the one that we’re supposed to be sort of, you know, raising an eyebrow. They’re all kind of charming in their own way. They’re all kind of complicated in their own way. There is you know, a little bit of darkness and a little bit of light. The basement is very funny. I’m sorry, the mom was chopping a lot. And I’m wondering how much of this is your reading? Because yes, your mom had been sending you pieces over time. But sending them out of order or sending them as she thought it was okay for someone who has not heard to see them. You’ve already said your mom was a perfectionist like there. There is no way she was sending you rough drafts of anything.

KMA

No, never.

How is it for you though, sitting down with what became let’s call it your first draft? Right? Like it’s your mother’s final, but it’s your first draft. Right? You’re coming to it, Sally’s coming to it. What’s that like?

KMA

It was amazing. Yeah, I remember being like, wait a minute. I’ve never read it all in order. Yeah. I felt like I knew, you know, a lot. But then I was like, wait. Reading it all through that first time. I think I read it in two sittings. I just kind of gulped it down. And I was like, wow, yeah. Because, you know, it was aware there were these different characters, but I didn’t know exactly the way it bounced from this one to that one, you know that? How it was all kind of woven together. And I didn’t know how it ended. So yeah, that was amazing to discover.

The chapters are really short. It’s very tightly written and that’s actually hard to do. I mean, there’s some writers who their natural sort of rhythm gets them to 500 pages. And no matter what, there literally are just some people who write better, longer. Your mom wrote a literary page turner. Which, honestly, when Sally sent it to me, whenever this was, ages ago, she sent it to me, and I was like, okay, I have no idea what I’m getting into. I had not heard of your mom, I somehow had missed her first novel. And I sat down and I just, I was so pleasantly surprised. As I kept going, I was like, I have no idea quite what to expect. She lets her characters do all of the lifting. And the dialogue is really snappy and smart. And there really isn’t a wasted word. And, again, I didn’t know what I was getting into when I just started reading. And I was like, Oh, hi. Hello, book. Where have you been? I know, I keep coming back to this. But not everyone could have done what you did. And yes, I understand that she left a pretty clean manuscript, all things considered, because perfection is, but you still have to be the one who says this is what happens. And this is how it goes out into the world. And can you walk us through that? Because I mean, yeah, you have a great editor working with you and a great agent. Yeah, you have your mom’s voice at the back of your brain, but you’re still doing the work.

KMA

Part of what made this whole thing work is that I am a writer, a hobbyist, and it sounds obvious, but as a kid, I was in touch with that, or I don’t know, I did it. It was something I did. And then as soon as I graduated college, I just thought for some reason. I’m just like, nope, not doing that. And so I did not consider myself a writer. I did not write fiction. I did not do it for about 10 years, from about age 22 to 32. I was just like, Oh, I’m not a writer. No, no, nothing to see here. You know, and still exploring exactly why. But anyway, that’s how I felt at the time. It felt important to me to not be a writer. And I was like, mostly not that happy. Surprise, surprise during those 10 years. Like it didn’t really work for me, but at least now I’ll never wonder. It’s like, No, I definitely feel better when I’m writing. And it was really her death that caused me to become a writer. Again, it’s hard to describe, but it was so clearly linked, it was like, because I was able to spend a couple of months right there with her. When she was in the hospice center. That process, the dying process, even though it was so sad and painful, there was so much solace in knowing that she lived how she wanted to live, she did what she wanted to do. She was proud of her life, you know. Like, there was something there that just felt a lot less scary than it could have maybe, I don’t know. And so, and I felt like she was dying with such courage because she had lived with such courage. And then it naturally kind of made me feel like, ah, and I’m not living with courage and if I were to die now, I wouldn’t be proud of how I’ve lived, what am I doing spent 10 years dicking around being unhappy, like, you’re going to change that. And usually, I’m unkind to myself, but that actually was not an unkind moment. It was just like, oh, okay, well, you’re not doing what you want to be doing. How are you going to change that? You know, what it was actually just like, curious curiosity. I don’t know. I have a lot of time, a lot of quiet time. And it was just kind of very natural and like, just naturally linked to anyway, so it was just like, oh, yeah, I should start writing. Yeah. And then after she died, I started writing and there were a couple of years of just me writing, you know, before this process of getting The Fetishist published started. Yeah, so I was developing as a writer. I was starting out but I was it was also something I’d been sort of doing my whole life. I don’t know, it was like, returning to my roots, I guess. And, and having grown up around a writer and seeing it, I don’t know. So in some ways, I’m a rookie. And in some ways, it’s like, my whole life has been this. So I don’t know, it’s a weird mix of those two things. But the fact that I’m starting out as a writer and developing my voice, and then and then when this project came along, it was like, okay, I can do this, because I’m a writer. I learned it from mom. But yeah, I don’t know, it’s not exactly a passing of the baton. But there’s sort of a like, I learned all about books and writing and stories, and what it is to be a writer and humor and dialogue, and you know, all the things kind of being around it my whole life with mom. And now she’s gone. And now I can use all that I’m going to keep using all that I’ve been using all that for my own writing. And I’m going to keep doing that. But now I can also use that to do the edits on her book.

I want to step away from book club for a second, because I still love this idea. But you’ve had a number of years, though, where book club has not happened. And I’m wondering who some of the influences that you found, some of the writers you found as influences that didn’t come out of book club, right? Because obviously, you’re going to develop your own voice that is separate for you. Like your mom’s voice is great. Please don’t misunderstand me. But you obviously you’re going to find your own space and your own voice and everything else. And I’m just wondering if we can talk about some of those writers as well.

KMA

Yeah, I’ve been reading a lot. I’ve been not so much with the classics anymore. Just lately been sort of naturally I just read whatever I feel like reading and I don’t really make a plan for myself, but I’ve just naturally been finding myself more inclined towards stuff. It’s kind of coming out now and, or in the past several years. And I know like that My Brilliant Friend series made a very big impression on me. It’s really exploring, you know, female friendship and these like close relationships that are loving but also can be troublesome and like what’s going on with that and, and sort of the process of becoming a writer, there were so many things about that. That series that spoke to me. I read a novel recently called Holding Pattern, which was amazing. Jenny Xie, and mother daughter and but just fascinating. All Grown Up by Jami Attenberg. I guess I’ve been reading a lot of stories about women struggling with their relationships and figuring out who they want to be. I really enjoy Conversations With Friends also, by Sally Rooney. Yeah. And just women who find ways of living that work for them that might be unconventional as sort of what’s been on my mind lately.

Hearing you talk about that makes me understand even more like why you were the perfect person to finish your mom’s book because there are more than one woman in this book that, shall we say, does their own thing, right? I mean, you’ve got a punk rock musician, who’s also an artist, you’ve got a couple of musicians, there isn’t really sort of a conventional storyline for any of them in a way. They’re all artists first. And that’s the thing that keeps them pushing forward in their own lives, and it’s a delight to see. But yeah, you also like narratives about slightly unconventional lives as well. And I can see that sort of thread running through. Do you have a favorite moment or a favorite character? Like, was there someone you got really attached to or a moment you got really attached to as you were working on The Fetishist?

KMA

I mean, I love them all.

Yeah, no, I get it. I get it.

KMA

Yeah, I like their, their banter the most. I think the just the really funny banter and kind of snarky kind of irreverent and sometimes it’s like wordplay or puns, and sometimes it’s joking around about really serious issues. It’s just so funny. And it does remind me of mom and how she would joke around, we would joke around.

I think it’s really important to be able to laugh about stuff that can be very uncomfortable. Because otherwise, if you’re just only focused on how uncomfortable the thing is, you’re not really going to move through it, and you’re not really going to get to the other side or be able to even talk about it with someone else. There are so many great moments in this book. And again, there are some moments to where it’s not the easiest, but the comedy. Your mom did a lot. Your mom did a lot with sort of also very confined spaces. I mean, even when we’re in Florence, it’s really a hotel and a sidewalk. And even when we’re in Baltimore, it’s you know, very specific locales and California too, mother writes really well in very tight spaces. She gives us an expansive worldview. She gives us an expansive experience of her characters, but she keeps putting them in boxes, and it’s kind of amazing to watch her get them out of them. I mean structure, you didn’t really need to do anything for the book, right? I mean, you said there was the one scene, there was a little bit of cleanup. There was a little bit of stitching together a little bit of finessing, right, like, but not a lot of architectural stuff that you needed to do. So how does that change the way you approach your own work then? Because I mean, you have the material, yes. But obviously, you’re not going to put your mom’s book out into the world unless it’s ready to be consumed by people who are not you. But now you’re sitting down to work on your short stories, your essays, your novel, I’m sure there’s a novel somewhere, how does what you’ve learned from the process of bringing The Fetishist out into the world impact your work?

KMA

I think that’s, you know, still unfurling, definitely this whole process feels like I have more confidence of just like, oh, I can do this and The Fetishist is written in the omniscient narration. So it’s, you know, that’s not a style we see a ton of, it’s not something I’ve tried in my own work. So it’s fun to just try it. I’m just like, oh, I guess I’m doing this right and popping in and out of different people’s heads, and sometimes sort of commenting philosophically or humorously on things that the characters can’t see. And then the long sentences and really heightened vocabulary, word play, all these things that, yeah, were fun, and like, hey, let’s just loosen up and dive in and do this, right, there’s a certain plunge, or leap of faith, you have to take where you’re just like, try this. And that, yeah, this sentence was gonna have five commas and two and dashes, you know, and I guess my own writing tends to be a little more contained, and concise. And so it was fun to just, it felt very different than, than doing my own prose. And I don’t know exactly, you know, it’s not like, I’m gonna then set out to write in this style, but it’s like, it’s like I’ve now I’ve done more things, and I have more confidence, and who knows how it’ll it but just sort of sort of maybe that taking a leap of faith to try and something you haven’t done before. And trusting that you can do it. It was definitely interesting to see both in doing the edits, but then also just seeing kind of the publishing world and how people talked about the novel. And the fact that it has a plot and has a rather exciting, suspenseful plot. And, you know, the fact that there’s stuff happening, and there’s menace, and there’s, you know, suspense, and that sometimes literary fiction doesn’t have quite as much of that, you know, the idea of a literary page turner, there was some words that like, the editor, and the agent, or some word that people kept using, and I forget what it was, but it basically meant, like it has a plot that’s on my mind now in a way that it wasn’t fully before. And we’ll see how that affects my writing, but more awareness on my part of what that can look like.

Part of it for me when I’m reading voice is the thing that I need more than anything, as far as I’m concerned. When stuff happens. It’s kind of a bonus, but I really need a voice. And if I can hook on to the voice, I’m good. I will read anything. But voice to for me, is built out of really beautiful sentences like clunky writing, I can do it. I can do a lot of things. But the sheer joy that I get out of beautiful sentences, I can’t separate. Great writing from voice. I think the two are sort of hand in hand, right? And again, like I was so pleasantly surprised your mom’s sense of pacing, the narrative thrust and her pacing, I was just like, wow, this is, I mean, clearly, you guys had a lot to work with. And I’m not saying that things didn’t happen once you and Sally and PJ got your hands on it, but it’s wild. How much happens and I didn’t even you know, usually I’m pretty good at looking at page counts. But I flew through this book so much that I don’t even remember what you guys came out. High 265 pages, a lot happens. But a lot happens intellectually and in terms of your characters interiority, to how much for you as a reader, though? I mean, yeah, you just said you’re looking for voice too. But now you’re saying oh, I may need plot more than I thought I needed.

KMA

Yes, exactly. Exactly what it is. I’m just like, Oh, right. Things should happen. Right. Okay. I mean, I knew that already. But I am someone I think like you, if I read a beautifully written thing with a really compelling voice, and not that much happens. I’m fine. Like I’m aware that’s not maybe the biggest seller or the most marketable, but like I’m fine with that. But now I’m like, well, but maybe just try a little harder to have some stuff happen.

I’m thinking of that internet meme. Why not both, right. Why not both? And yes, part of me is sort of sad to see that your mom you know, this is it we have the two books, curious to see what you do. Really curious to see like when you find your format, because who knows you might be a story writer, you might be a novelist. We don’t know. Like, you actually don’t know you’re figuring it out. All right. So here you are saying is a writer, as a creator, you now understand, you need to put a little more plot into what you’re working on. But let’s get back to The Fetishist for a second, we’re gonna stay spoiler free. I know, we’ve been dropping all of these sort of hints about how much fun this book is. And there’s stuff that really I’m staying away from because I don’t want to be the one to like, drop the spoiler. That’s pretty much why I’m dancing around so much of what’s happening. But did you have any moments where you were really, really surprised about maybe interactions between characters or a set piece maybe that your mom threw in? And you’re like wow, I was okay. I was not expecting that like, both as a creator but as a reader, not necessarily as your mom’s kid. Right? You see the distinction I’m making between all of those like, or was there something that just like delighted you beyond belief where you’re like, I can’t believe that just happened? And yeah, we’re gonna dance around the specifics, but you understand what I’m asking.

KMA

I think it’s okay to say that the very ending of the book, the final chapter, I was completely surprised. I had read it but I didn’t know it was the ending. Oh, I was perplexed. And part of me thought no, no, that should not be the last chapter. And part of me thought that’s weird. And part of me thought like, who does that and like, I had all these reactions to that specifically, just as a reader, you know, and part of me part of me felt like, is this a mistake? Or sometimes I’m just like, so, so unexpected and so unusual. And I remember talking with Sally about it and her being like, Yeah, but that’s the beauty of it, it really makes you think so I came around, but part of me was like, it was very Yeah, this but this is as a reader, not her daughter.

Yep, no, I totally get it. And I will say, I laughed out loud when I realized what was happening. And it took me when I was like, Okay, I’m gonna follow you down this rabbit hole. And yes, we are specifically talking about the last chapter. And I just started to laugh. I was like, this is slightly audacious in the best possible way but it that’s like I absolutely understand where your mom was coming from I absolutely understand where Sally was coming from where you were coming from like, it works. It is not the expected thing. I think about Kyoko as a character right, our punk rock girl. I think about Alma, our other punk rock girl. Oh, I will totally admit though. I did think, Cello Kitty, Cello Kitty made me laugh. That made me laugh so hard. I was just like, No, that should be the name of the band. It wasn’t but okay.

KMA

A rock band of classical cellists.

I thought it was great. Anyway, that’s kind of there, but there are gonna be people listening who are like, what are you talking about? And this is my way of saying please just go read the book. Please, please, please just go read The Fetishist.

KMA

That reminds me of, I don’t know if I knew this before, but I remember feeling kind of surprised and chuckling in the name of Kyoko’s band is the Yukio Mishimas.

33:02

Yeah, that was that was that was inspired.

KMA

And then I was like, oh, yeah, I think I have to Google it. And I was like, yeah, it’s saying so much about her character and her values. And like, it’s funny, but it’s also, just something so charming about that.

I mean, this is both of us just saying a lot happens, a lot happens. These characters, they get to evolve, they get to change, they get to make peace with their pasts and their decisions and the things that they do and how they see the world. And, and it’s a pretty significant shift for everyone, even we get some minor characters. Alma has a neighbor, who I’m quite fond of. I love their banter the most. Yeah, they’re great. They’re really great. But it’s a genuine friendship. And he has a couple of moments where towards the end, it’s just, you know, it’s just charming. It’s just really charming. And I really don’t want to spoil it. I just I think this book is going to surprise a lot of people. I really can’t wait for that to happen. But hey, what’s next for you? I mean, obviously, you’re working on something. But do you know what it is?

KMA

I think it’s a novel. I think it’s my first attempt. My first attempt to write a novel so I think I know more than more than most, but sometimes your first attempt at another novel does not turn into your published debut. You know, I’m very, very aware of that. So yeah, but I’m trying you know, I’m trying it out. And yeah, we’ll see what happens.

So before I let you go, though, the jacket, right, like I know, we’ve been speaking about this book coming from it sideways and upside down and all around because, honestly, lots happens. We don’t want to tell you what’s going we do not want to spoil this novel for you. But I’m also hoping that folks come to the jacket and say what is happening here I need to read this book. So can we talk about the jacket for a second because that is one ugly fish. That is a really ugly, that is the nicest way I can describe the ugly fish but it works. It totally works.

KMA

The fish is ugly. The fish has a mouth that is open, the fish has bugged out eyes. Something about it reminds me of like Medusa’s head, isn’t there a painting or someone’s holding up Medusa’s head and Medusa head is this expression of like? And, yeah, we really wanted Sally and I talked a lot about the cover, and we wanted something that would show that the book was funny, and kind of crazy and kind of, you know that lots of things happen, but like that, it’s gonna be very much a unique reading experience. And if, somehow, we wanted a cover that would convey, you know, beauty and elegance, but also fierceness and intensity, and humor, and I think just this perfect, yeah, so there’s a giant blowfish with a very particular expression. Something about the mouth is almost to me, it’s suggestive of almost like some sort of bodily orifice. And overall, you know, the blowfish is such a potent symbol, if you think so, as I understand it’s a delicacy in Asia. It’s a lot of men especially like, you know, more than a few white tourists are interested in trying this delicacy which can kill you if it’s not prepared properly. The fish is kind of a symbol of like male bravado and danger, and sort of wanting to acquire exotics, thrilling experience.

It’s a great jacket. It’s a great jacket. It is very, very funny. And I think it captures the spirit of the thing. And readers can decide for themselves but Kayla, this was great. Thank you so much. I cannot wait to see what you do next. But in the meantime, there’s your mom’s novel Katherine Min, your mom, The Fetishist is out now. It is very, very funny.

KMA

Thanks so much for this conversation.