Poured Over: Jana Casale on How to Fall Out of Love Madly

Jana Casale show notes:

“To me, the thing as a writer that you should always be working towards is like, how can I make this just be delicious for the reader?”

Jana Casale has perfected the art of writing about the ordinary lives of women in such a way that fans of Elena Ferrante and Sally Rooney will flock to, and her latest story following the lives of three young women as they navigate love, How to Fall Out of Love Madly, is just out. Jana joins us on the show to talk about the lives and relationships of Millennial women, body image issues, self-love, loneliness, the influence one teacher had on her decision to be a writer, and much more with guest host, Elani Wilson. And we end this episode with TBR Topoff book recommendations from Marc and Becky.

Featured Books (episode)

How to Fall Out of Love Madly by Jana Casale

Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy

Hello, Molly! by Molly Shannon

Featured Books (TBR Topoff):

Next Year, for Sure by Zoey Leigh Peterson

Real Life by Brandon Taylor

This episode of Poured Over is produced and hosted by Elani Wilson and mixed by Harry Liang. New episodes land Tuesdays and Thursdays (with occasional Saturdays) here and on your favorite podcast app.

Full transcript for this episode:

B&N: Hello, I’m Elani Wilson. I’m a bookseller at Barnes and Noble. And today I have the pleasure of speaking with Jana Casale. Her debut novel was The Girl Who Never Read Noam Chomsky, which came out in 2018. And her latest is How to Fall Out of Love Madly. Jana, thank you so much for joining us here today.

Jana Casale: Of course, I’m so excited to be here. Thank you guys.

B&N: And you are a new mother. Congratulations.

JC: Thank you. I know, I didn’t time this wall because my baby is only two months old. I have a book coming out. But you know, I’m rolling with it. I’m hanging in there.

B&N: How is being a mom so far?

JC: It’s great. I really love it.

B&N: I know. You can’t really say oh, it’s awful. I hate it.

JC: But I feel like actually people expect that of you. Because it’s like, it just sounds like I don’t know, maybe a little braggadocious. Like, it’s wonderful. It’s great. I just love my life. It’s so much fun. #Blessed. But I do love being a mom. It’s, you know, a totally new world and it’s exhausting. And it’s certainly relentless. You know, and baby clothes. I mean, what beats that like, thinking to buy baby clothes nonstop.

B&N: Do you have plans to tour for this book?

JC: I don’t as of right now, and I don’t think I will. I mean, they haven’t. I’ve mentioned that it probably like I don’t want to do anything to hurt the books chances but, you know, would rather not.

B&N: Understandable. You have a fresh child at home.

JC: So. Right, exactly.

B&N: You know, I would like to set the mood a little bit for our listeners with the poem that comes right after your dedication. Yeah. It’s called to the to the woman crying uncontrollably in the next stall by Kim Addonizio. If you ever woke in your dress at 4am ever closed your legs to a man you loved open them. For one you didn’t move against a pillow in the dark, stood miserably on a beach for a week clinging to your ankles, paid good money for a bad haircut, backed away from a mirror that wanted to kill you bled into the backseat for lack of a tampon if you swam across a river under rain data up to watch the Moon eat the son entire ripped out the stitches in your heart. Because why not? If you think nothing, and no one can listen, I love you, joy is coming.

JC: It makes me want to cry.

B&N: Wow. So I was not familiar with Kim’s poetry. Until this. Thank you.

JC: She’s amazing. Yeah.

B&N: But this choice in poetry to kind of start your book. Can you talk about that a little bit?

JC: I think I actually came across that poem. After I had written a good amount of the book, I just responded to it exactly the same way I just did right now, which is like wanting to cry and feeling like, I mean, that’s what poetry does, right? It does something kind of unspeakable. That’s what’s so amazing about poems, a good poem touches on the indescribable, and that’s what this poem does. But I think it really hits home to have a type of feeling and womanhood, and especially that feeling of loneliness, which I think is such a big part of what I write about in general. You know, I always hope with my books to make women feel more connected to themselves to each other. And to feel a little less lonely, because I think a lot of times as women, we do feel very lonely. And we feel like our suffering is our own, we kind of keep it to ourselves. So I think this poem speaks perfectly to that. And I also just let like last line of the joy is coming, like I just that like kills me to death. And I thought it’s so perfect to, you know, have that poem and there and then you flip the page. And the next chapter is titled, Joy.

B&N: So good.

JC: So, I know I felt like I got it. A little writer when for me my like nerdy right away. But yeah, no, I love that poem.

B&N: Yes. So you know, How to Fall Out of Love Madly? Can you give us a little summary about what this book is about?

JC: This book is about three women told from the perspective of three women, and each of them are admirable and brilliant, and strong, and kind and caring and wonderful. And they have all these great qualities and are able to assert themselves in their lives in so many ways. But when it comes to the men that they love, they just are not able to, to do that. And they’re not able to stand up for themselves. And so that really is kind of the theme of the book, which is why as women do we We struggle so often to be our truest self and our relationship where we really should.

B&N: So the book starts with Joy and Annie, and they’re looking for a new roommate. So they put out an ad. And they eventually decide on Theo, there’s instant connection on Joy’s end with Theo, but you know, they all get along really well. And they have this this great roommate dynamic. And I feel like from the perspectives we did any enjoy to begin with. And then we meet Celine. And at first I was like, Wait, why does Celine get a storyline? I was so upset.

JC: Which, can I just say I love you for that.

B&N: So, for those who don’t know, just yet, so Celine, eventually is introduced to the roommates as Theo’s girlfriend, and it’s like, well, wait a minute. Where did she come from? Why these three women? Why was this the story?

JC: You know, it’s kind of funny as when I before I wrote the book, I kind of had this idea that I had these two ideas for a book, one is this girl who’s very in love with her roommate. And one was the story of a girl who’s in a terrible relationship. But she, you know, finds out that her boss has been accused of misconduct, and she fights really hard for the women in her workplace. But she isn’t able to kind of like, have that kind of fervor for herself and her own well being at home. And I thought those were like two novels like, but as I started writing, I thought it worked really well and really nicely together. And I felt as though you know, I think the book is quite character driven. And I think the joy in the any kind of dynamic, really works well. And I loved that. I think when I decided to have the two of them together was when I had this vision of this scene at the end of the book where they are confronting each other. I just loved the idea of two very good girlfriends full on confronting each other about the men in their lives, which I think is something that probably for a good reason, we don’t do. Don’t do very much. It’s kind of a fantasy moment, in a way. Yeah. But that was the moment for me as a writer, I was like, you know, it’d be great to kind of just like, combine these two stories. And then as far as the Lean goes, seems like a character I had thought of, and I’m not a character driven writer, funnily enough, I typically am more themed driven in the sense that I will I have things I’m obsessed with, and then something will happen and in my life, or I’ll hear about something, it’ll spark an idea. And I was like, Wow, that really relates to the thing I’m obsessed with. But with Celine, I just always thought about being in the shoes of a woman, because Celine is this character who’s supposed to be like, outstandingly gorgeous, sort of un-humanly gorgeous, to just kind of talk about that and body image issues from the perspective of someone like that. And I think her storyline, what I love about it is especially the fact that Joy’s you know, that moment with Theo, where, you know, Celine asks Theo about how he feels about joy, and he just blushingly says she’s ugly. That was another moment for me as a writer that like, I really wanted to write that moment of a man who had clearly cared very deeply about this person, was willing to forge this relationship with this person and, and foster it. And yet, in like a moment of stress in any situation, he’s willing to just rip her down to like, she’s ugly, at the drop of a hat. I wanted to have another woman here that see that and just be like, done with you. So that was kind of also why wandering there, the little moments is what kind of drove me to think about intertwining all those stories.

B&N: To be clear, I ended up loving Celine. My initial reaction, yes, but no, I definitely ended up really, really enjoying her character. There are just so many themes that you address in this book that I feel like women of all ages can relate to and Millennials specifically, I don’t know if it’s because you know, we’re in our 30s, we’re going through that experience, these are very relevant times that we’re going through, and even if I can’t relate to every situation, it’s like, oh, wait, but there was that one time. That definitely happened. Speaking of the friendship between Annie and Joy and you know, them deciding to live together where whether you have experienced it or not women, I feel like know that whole don’t live with your best friend because you might not be best friends at the end. And Annie and Joy go from living together to not living together. But then there’s a temporary reunion at the end. And I’m curious what your reasoning was for not kind of making it more like a permanent situation? Why was it?

JC: Great question, I really am wow’d right now. So you know what I think actually, I’m gonna answer this question, which is that, yeah, I wanted to bring them back together for a moment and have them have that nice, kind of like connection. But I also wanted to honor the things that they wanted. And I think for Annie, she really wanted a committed relationship. But we see that kind of like happy ending beginnings of a happy ending for Annie. And with joy, I really thought it was important she be completely independent at the end of the book, especially because so much of what is her story arc is about kind of this domestic hellscape of her own making, where she’s just becoming like this kind of pseudo wife figure. Yeah, for Theo. I thought it was important, she have a home that was really hers and hers alone here, and also what you said about like the Millennial aspect, I mean, to me the setting, I mean, if you notice, like the book is set in a city, mostly, but like, I never specify what city it is. So to me, the setting of the book, in a sense is like millennials in their 30s not having money, which is like what all of us have to deal with, you know, we are a very different generation than our parents generation in the sense that most of us are not able to just buy homes in our late 20s and early 30s. Many of us are living, especially if you live in an urban area, or living with roommates, well into our 30s. And or later, you know, and struggling to make ends meet paying student loans. And it’s just a very different kind of movement into adulthood. Parents had, you know, I think all the characters ache to be responsible, and independent, and like really can’t because they just can’t afford to, financially, you know, it’s just that simple.

B&N: Regardless of which city you’re talking about, if you’ve had that experience living in a big city, you can relate to the you know, like you want to be there, you want to be where the things are happening. But you probably have to have roommates to probably are sacrificing a little bit to get there. Yeah, exactly. So Joy had a conversation or with her mom, or she was just reflecting on her mom, you know, in her 30s, she had a house, she had a family, she had a good job, she had a home. And that’s not necessarily the reality for a lot of people right now. Right? There’s that pressure to kind of do that.

JC: Right, the pressure still exists. And it’s also a biological pressure for women, right? Because even though our society has changed a lot, and most people aren’t as financially independent, as their parents were, it’s expensive to have a family obviously. And it’s not realistic if you’re living with roommates to you know, have children necessarily for a lot of people. So the weird thing is I feel people warn you about different ages as you age, right? Like, everybody’s like puberty, puberty is gonna ruin your life, it’s the worst thing ever. And then early 20s, you’re like, you’ll be lost. I feel like no one warns you about your 30s. But I think your 30s are actually very hard. Because I do think it’s like, okay, the game is over. You have to have all this stuff together, you gotta get the career together, you gotta get the home, you got to have the partner in the family, like if this all started starts to hit you. And for a woman of course, there’s also if you have an interest in having children, there’s the pressure of time ticking away. And yeah, it’s kind of horrible. That’s why I really wanted to set it at that transition from like, 29 to 30, where you finally like, realize, like, Oh, my God, like, it’s over, you know.

B&N: Another one of the themes that we talked about is body issues and image and kind of self esteem. And I think all three of the women have different ways that they approach these things. So, with Joy in the beginning, you know, we’re talking about she first thing is she hates her stomach. And she eventually has a very deep conversation with her stomach where it’s like, you know, been there 3am, I’m hungry. No, we’re not eating. We’re gonna wait for a realistic time to eat. But that is one of her struggles and kind of plays into her self esteem. And Celine, who is this gorgeous girl and she knows it, but she doesn’t know it. It’s like, she knows she’s different. But at the same time, I think so many of her actions are based on reassurance from others.

JC: I agree. That’s so true. Yeah, that’s so true. I mean, I was like writing about body image issues. But for my first book, I had a chapter where the character tries on a bathing suit and that chapter which like I purposely I added that later like it wasn’t in the original and I’m telling you every single review every single person I talked to talked to me about that bathing suit because every woman was like I so related to how horrible that was trying on the bathing suits, like I love that and I just think there’s like a deep need to talk about these you know, body image insecurities, because actually, I think I when I was writing in it for the first book, I worried that will this make the book seem kind of frivolous, like is this important, but really, it is, because it’s such a like a deep wound for women, and it’s like others, I think there’s a level of shame with it. I think women, so, so strongly based our self worth off the approval of looking good and feeling like we’re desired or wanted or needed. And that, of course, is tied very closely to how we look. That’s the message we get from a very young age. And so I purposefully, for each woman, like I introduced them through whatever body image issue they, they have. In fact, I don’t describe them beside that, like you don’t know anything else about how they look. Not even hair, eye color, nothing. It’s just their age, and their insecurity. And that’s it. Because I think that these things really define us. It’s horrible, you know, but they do and yeah, Celine, she’s like insecure about, like, everything. I think there’s a line of her being like, you know, when you’re close to perfect, it’s easier to obsess about perfect because I do, I think, I think that that’s really true for her that she is so beautiful. And yeah, exactly what you’re saying at the same time constantly wanting that confirmation, because she’s she knows, I think it’s like she knows the power that she wields with that in a lot of ways in her life that she doesn’t really want to lose ever.

B&N: Yeah. So even just kind of bringing those two up. What would you say? Annie’s take is on her image, because I’m not sure she was as concerned about it.

JC: I think with Annie, I mean, Annie’s insecurities, her breasts, she thinks her breasts are like strange looking, essentially. And it bothers her and she tries to avoid ever having to be without a bra, basically, even in relationships. No, I think she probably is just as defined by it. However, I think her life is not as defined by it, like Joy is a person who, at the beginning of the book, we find out that she’s never been in love, even though she’s going to be 30. And that is obviously something in her life that really upsets her, even though she doesn’t really admit that to herself until later into the book. Annie is not that person, she has had serious relationships, she’s in a serious relationship. And yet, she’s also not Celine, who’s like constantly dealing with her looks all the time, you know, it probably just is like a happenstance of her life to some degree. Yeah, there’s a big element of luck in the book, you know, I’m kind of obsessed with luck. Thinking about the ways, you know that life kind of unfolds and kind of things happen or don’t happen, and you don’t have as much control over it as you think. And I think the book, you know, really talks about that. And so in a sense, and he’s being a little less insecure, is kind of luck. She just happened to be someone that is maybe just not quite attractive enough to constantly be obsessed with her looks, but also is in a situation where she’s meeting men and having, you know, serious relationships.

B&N: So I think that kind of also may have something to do with their mothers. And I feel like with women, it’s also there’s that connection, we have these relationships with our mothers, sometimes they’re strained, sometimes their best friends, it can be a very complicated thing. And I think that each girl’s mother has they have a different type of relationship and a different dynamic. And I think it’s really interesting. And I’m curious, why did you feel the need to mention them at all? Because they weren’t a huge part of the story.

JC: But yeah, exactly. It’s not really like a mother or daughter kind of like, story about their dynamic, that for the same reason that, like I felt, to introduce the characters like I don’t typically love, like giving like a lot of backstory, that’s not my thing. As a writer, I don’t go into a lot of details about someone’s, like I said, their looks, the setting that those kinds of things I just don’t do well, they don’t interest me as a writer. So, I try to think of ways that I can very quickly give a reader the identity of the character, and to me, their mother, them and their mother’s relationship. It’s like a way to do that. So yeah, every introduction, basically, we’re getting that relationship moment between the character and their mom. And I thought that just says so much without really saying anything. You know, it like brings you in like, no, okay, this is what this person is about. Because I do think, yeah, mother and daughter relationships are so defining in our lives, and it really, really become such a big part of your identity. And so, yeah, I just kind of wanted to give that to the reader right away.

B&N: And even for Joy, you know, her mom saying, Jenny Craig, maybe. She keeps in the back of her mind and I there is no one who can hurt your feelings like your mother. And I think it’s really interesting because also the approach to relationships. I think a lot of the times, women will either mimic what they see their mom doing, or maybe do the exact opposite. Do you think there’s any truth to that? Where it’s like?

JC: Yeah. Yes, I think absolutely. I think we’re so affected by it. I think like body image, I mean, I think most of us have some memory. And I think usually it’s pretty like a deep set memory of our moms like dieting, or talking about something about their body they didn’t like, or not wanting to wear a swimsuit this season for some reason or another. That kind of stuff affects you as a child, even though you don’t really think about it necessarily, you know, especially if it’s not like a major part of the relationship between you and your mom. It’s just something in passing. When I’m saying body image issues, I connect that very closely to relationships women have with men, because I think it all falls under the same umbrella of wanting approval wanting to be desired, wanted, needed. And so absolutely, I think it’s so paramount in how we think of ourselves and act. It’s really sad is what it is.

B&N: It really is.

JC: Really doesn’t end.

B&N: Well, no, nothing was better than you had a line about, you know, I think it was Annie looking in the mirror, it could have been Joy looking in the mirror. And the thought about, you know, thinking she’s unique, but she looks like her mother, her mother looks like her grandmother. And it’s like, like, oh my gosh, I’m not even an original.

JC: I know, I know, well, sometimes, I will like my own experience, I’ll like catch a glimpse in my face. I’m like, Oh, my God, exactly like my mom. And it’s like, so bizarre, almost Yeah, you really kind of don’t have that identity. I mean, that’s like kind of the idea to just like things being out of your control. Once again, like these forces kind of acting on you, instead of you acting on them. I think we really probably a bit of American thinking, too, that we have so much control and that so many, you know, we have the power to decide our future and be what we want to be. And I think anytime you can be reminded, maybe there’s all these things at play that really have nothing to do with you. And you really don’t have that say, it’s kind of just overwhelming, it’s probably best not to think too hard about it.

B&N: Seriously, I did way too much thinking reading this book. Another one of the things that, you know, we all have it, is a job, or our work situation. And I think these three girls, again, it’s a different dynamic for each of them. You know, we don’t care as much about Joy’s work situation, because she’s so absorbed into theory, Theo, like that is, that’s all she cares about. That’s her world. And we know she works in HR when and I think we find out later, she’s actually really good at her job when she has a conversation where Annie needs her advice. And it’s like, well, who knew? Because she doesn’t talk about it. But she’s actually very good at her job. And then any works for a radio station, and she loves her job. And it’s she has the situation with her boss, where she ultimately has to make a decision. We also have Celine, who works in wellness. And I’m honestly not really sure how Celine feels about her job. I think she does it. And she’s good at it, because she kind of fits the image of it. But I think, the work situation is always such an important part of who we are, to an extent.

JC: Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I probably honestly, if I like rewrote the book, I’d probably would add, like another scene was, somebody was like, you have to add a chapter to the book. Like somehow, they stopped production book’s not coming out August 2. Like actually, we’re gonna do one quick little edit that is a sweet but forceful letter from my editor. It would probably be to add like a scene with Joy at work more, you know, because I do think it’s interesting that she works in HR, and that she is great at her job and, you know, loves her job, even though it’s kind of like one of those jobs that like maybe, you know, you’re not when you’re 13 dreaming to do. And that was like something else that I think it’s kind of in the background of the book is like talking about aspirations, because I think, you know, our parents gave us the message of like, follow your dreams, you know, what is it you love? That’s what you should do professionally. And realistically, that’s not like always the best advice. You know, it’s sometimes works out sometimes doesn’t a lot of the jobs that people love and want to do aren’t necessarily that enjoyable. Because there’s such a slog, there’s so much competition, you get paid too little. I mean, your dream could be to just have a nice beach house like part of your dream for life. But you’re not you don’t even want a job that would facilitate that. Maybe that’s not your dream, but the nice dream is enjoying your beach house. So I wanted to talk about that because like Annie, she has aspirations to be a writer. At the end, she gives up on that. And she’s lucky enough to still get kind of like a romantic job right working in radio. And so I think that defines so much about her is that people admire her job and she’s very good at it. With Celine, I think she’s just one of these people that again, is just so attractive that that’s kind of why they want people working there who are beautiful, and she is beautiful, and so she got hired there. Yeah. And I think she’s very aware of that in some way. She to me is like the most tragic character in the book. She’s like, the least defined for herself. She really struggles with boundaries for herself. And kind of knowing what she wants and where she’s going.

B&N: It kind of seems like for for Celine, a lot of her decisions in life had been based on the validation she’s received. You know, she’s the one that we get, like the most of her history with the current boyfriends and kind of who she actually liked. And then the experiences that kind of just happened and she just went with it. And even with Theo, I think it was kind of like, you know, they had this connection. Maybe. He was a nice enough guy.

JC: Exactly. Yeah, no, there’s like a lot of talk on her on like dating apps and just looking for that like instant approval. And she likes to fine, but she isn’t like in love with him. She just feels I think for her being single equals not feeling good about herself. So she finds relationships, moves into relationships, finds approval from them, because if she doesn’t have that approval, she’s not feeling fulfilled, you know, at all.

B&N: You’ve got an MFA from Emerson College and an MST which I had to look up. I was like Master of Studies, which is essentially a Master of Arts from Oxford?

JC: Yeah, basically an MFA. But they don’t call it MFA over there. Because like Oxford does everything different. I wish they would just call it an MFA. It would make my life easier.

B&N: But you’ve got this MFA, and that degree is in creative writing. And you’ve got this extensive experience. And I’m curious, did you know that you always wanted to be a writer?

JC: I kind of did. I wanted to be a writer from the time I was like, 10 years old, I had a fourth grade teacher. I mean, you know how it is like, your elementary school teachers are so fundamental, and finding yourself, you know, it’s like, it’s almost like ridiculous how much power they have over you good and bad, you know. So that’s why having a great teacher can mean so much. I have this great fourth grade teacher. And he had this assignment where we all like wrote into these journals in class. And you could write whatever you want your great stories, you could write about your stuff, whatever. And then he would go when we were at recess and kind of look through the book, you come in from recess, and they’d be up on the overhead projector. I don’t know if the kids have those anywhere. Probably not. Maybe they do. Maybe I’m wrong, sometimes dinosaur things last forever. It’ll be up there. And usually it was up there as like a critique. I came in and my story was up there. And I like died inside. I felt horrible. Like, I was so worried about what people, you know, I just thought, usually he would talk about grammar and spelling out of it. But he had everybody read it. And he’s like, what, tell me what you think of it. And like the kids were all like, there’s this as misspelled. There should be this. And, and he was like, isn’t this beautiful? Like, something like that? He said, and that literally changed my life, you know, and he completely fostered my interest as being a writer. He just basically told me that I was talented at it, which is so important when you’re a kid. So yeah, that that moment is like defined my entire life, obviously. But no, I wanted it from then on. And I just kept going.

B&N: Yes, that’s no teachers. Yes, shout out to teachers. That’s a very relatable, deep memory about having your story shared in front of the class. And the level of embarrassment that I’m like, I don’t know if they’re trying to do this, but they do.

JC: I know. It’s so true. So mortifying, it’s kind of still like that, you know, it’s the exact same feeling when people say to you, like you meet someone on the street, and they like, ask you what you do for a living, which is like the worst thing to be like, I’m a writer, you never know what people are thinking. They’re like, Sure you are. I always think they think that if they ask you the title of your book, it doesn’t matter what the title of your book is. They always have the same reaction, which is like, confusion, a little distaste of it. Like they’re just kind of like what? Like, because it’s just not you know it. It taught me when we were naming my son, not to tell anyone our ideas. We didn’t say a word to anyone, not even my parents. We told no one when he was born and was there, because people just don’t know how to react to a name. You know, judgment. Yeah, yeah. So it’s exact same feeling as when you’re a kid. So my advice to anyone out there is if you ever find a writer and you ask them to name their book, I don’t care what it is. You say. That’s fantastic. What a great title, that would like really help.

B&N: I read this story. It was the pacing was perfect like chef’s kiss. I like it didn’t feel rushed. It didn’t feel like it dragged on. It was like I wasn’t wanting for more. I didn’t feel like there was too much information. And I just, I really do wonder is that do you think kind of as a result of your school and like going to school specifically before writing, or do you kind of think you’ve always had a little bit of that knowledge?

JC: I think it’s me. Well, you know what this is my thing, I am a huge proponent of books being entertaining. And I think that, primarily of literary fiction, I think my books kind of walk the line between commercial and literary, I think it’s a big ask to ask people to sit down and read a book. It’s an enormous amount of time to read a book, it doesn’t really fit in great with our current lifestyles, just in general. To me, the thing as a writer that you should always be working towards is like, how can I make this just be delicious for the reader? Just like something they can totally go through, and still get something out of it? You know, I definitely want. Like I said, I’m a writer who thinks about themes. That’s important to me, I write books, because I am fascinated by parts of human nature. And I have questions about them. So I do write books where you’re thinking about things, but it has to be fast and easy to read to me or why, you know, like, you can’t get people to read it, that it doesn’t even matter what’s in it. Like, if it’s not a joy to read, and they’re not going right through it. And that’s the biggest compliment, in my opinion, as a writer, is if someone’s like, I read your book in one sitting, I read it really fast. It was so good. You know, like, overnight, I was out you know that those are the kinds of things that mean that you’re doing your job correctly, because yeah, it’s a lot of work to read a book. Let’s be honest. It’s not like watching a movie. We take an hour and you know, I guess now they’re longer. They’re like, two hours, but three, yeah. They’re getting a little pushy in Hollywood with that task for people. Remember back in the day, they have like the two separate

B&N: Titanic. I remember that was like the first one. I knew Titanic was yes. It was like, wow.

JC: Do you remember and like when it came out they like had news stories about how long it was.

B&N: Now, it’s like the standard. It’s like, if it’s not three hours, I don’t want it.

JC: Ever watch an older movie, especially like a rom-com that’s like really light and shorter. Yeah, that was like really short. But it’s great. I wish they would go back. I liked the shorter movies.

B&N: It’s nice. Yeah, yeah. When it comes to reading, what who are some of your influences?

JC: I mean, so many different people? I’m kind of, I think, well, no, I read a lot of literary fiction. I’m not, I kind of do stick to that, for the most part. You know, someone who I really respect who’s like, a huge fan of that is kind of probably an oddball one for me is, I’m a huge Tom Perrotta fan. I’ve read all of his books, I love the way he has kind of like that, you know, focal point of something in life, he’ll take sort of like little moments and kind of, you know, magnetize them in such a nice way. And he talks a lot about like suburban life that I think can be really interesting and weird. So yeah, I just adore him. I’m a huge Elena Ferrante fan, kind of who isn’t? I mean, she’s so masterful, I can’t I can’t even like she’s one of those people where you read her work, and you just like don’t even understand what’s going on. Like how someone can do that. Toni Morrison I adore you know, the qualities of her books that I think is such a standout is that they do kind of last with you. I find the older I get the more I’ll read books and like forget them entirely, which is so terrible. But her books are not like that, like they just stay with you in a very deep way. I mean, again, what is there to say? Like, it’s so stupid.

B&N: But that’s probably why her name comes up. Like when you anytime you ask people that question is probably one of the people who you hear the most often.

JC: Right of course, I mean, she deserves it. Yeah. Interesting thing to say, because so many people say it, but it’s totally the truth, you know? Yeah. And Anna Karenina is my favorite book. I read that as like a teenager. So it’s like stayed with me and like, and like a deep way. So shout out to Tolstoy.

B&N: So, I know you have a new baby at all. But have you read anything recently? Like anything new that was really stood out to you?

JC: No. 100% no. And I feel so bad about that. But you know what I just started reading that I’ve been enjoying. And this is a little different for me. Although no, that’s not true. Because I do sometimes read these kind of books, but I’m actually reading Molly Shannon’s memoir, and I’m really enjoying it. That’s a good thing to read with a baby because it’s just like, takes you out of reality. I’m reading like children’s books and baby books that have one word a page because he’s two months old.

B&N: And that’s okay.

JC: I thought I’m gonna read more because it’s gonna be like quiet in a way like when he naps and like my child literally does not nap virtually at all. And so I thought I had the energy that I’m going to be reading more during this time of my life. No.

B&N: So, this might kind of also be in the same vein as that but with Dial Press, you signed a two-book deal? Yeah. And so this was the first of that two book deal. Have you started at all on the third one? Do you have a concept ready to go?

JC: The short answer is yes. The long answer is no. There’s like a long way to go with it. But I’m very excited about the third book, I think it’s going to be a lot about jealousy, in a way. I feel like jealousy, I mean, that’s like, a very proud thing to say. But yeah, I feel like we don’t talk about jealousy. And yet jealousy is such a huge part of like, the fabric of our lives and our motivations as people. So it’s really about like women’s relationships and jealousy, but there’s obviously going to be a story to go with it. It’s not streamline enough to explain yet.

B&N: Yes, that sounds great. Is there anything that you want listeners to take away about How to Fall Out of Love Madly?

JC: I just hope that, you know, I feel the things I’m talking about in this book are things that we don’t say out loud enough, as women. These experiences, like we talked about with the poem, that I think bring very deep loneliness to ourselves and to our lives, it’s very lonely to feel like, you love someone, and they don’t love you back the same or that you can’t be your truest, most open self, to the person that you love in a way, like that is a very lonely experience. And I think there’s an enormous pressure to act like you are happy, and that you don’t struggle. And so we just kind of don’t talk about it with each other, we kind of have to pretend that we’re okay and that it’s not painful. And I think that is something I hate. And I hope that this book, at least makes women feel more connected to themselves, and hopefully other people. So yeah, and I also hope that it’s just an enjoyable read. Both things. I hope it is entertaining and kind of a nice escape on a summer day. And I hope it makes you feel more like yourself, you know.

B&N: I’ve already told friends that they need to get this book. August 2nd, How to Fall Out of Love Madly. Jana Casale. Thank you so much for this book. And thank you so much for joining us. This was great.

JC: Of course. It was so wonderful to be here. So lovely to chat with you. Fantastic. Thank you.

B&N: Thank you