Poured Over: Ashley Flowers & Alex Kiester on All Good People Here

By Jenna Seery / January 4, 2024 at 6:15 am

“People always asked ‘what made you want to write fiction?’ And I’m like, this isn’t a departure. I feel like this is me going back to how it actually started…”

All Good People Here, our January Mystery & Thriller Pick, has everything you want in a crime thriller — a cold case, an intrepid journalist and more twists and turns than you could count, all told from the host of the hit podcast Crime Junkie. Author Ashley Flowers and her co-writer Alex Kiester joined us to talk about their collaboration process, writing suspenseful moments, creating their small-town backdrop and more with guest host, Jenna Seery.

This episode of Poured Over was hosted by Jenna Seery and mixed by Harry Liang.              

Featured Books (Episode):
All Good People Here by Ashley Flowers & Alex Kiester
Gone Girl by Gillian Flynn
I Have Some Questions for You by Rebecca Makkai
Bright Young Women by Jessica Knoll
The Only One Left by Riley Sager

Full Episode Transcript
Jenna Seery
I’m Jenna Seery, a bookseller and associate producer of Poured Over and today I am so excited to be talking about All Good People Here. It is one of the most exciting thrillers. It’s got everything you might possibly need twists, turns, red herrings and more comes from the minds of Ashley Flowers, and Alex Kiester, who are two people that I’m excited to have with me today. So, Ashley, Alex, thank you so much for joining me.

Ashley Flowers

Thanks for having us.

All right. So I feel like this book has been out in the world for a little bit in hardcover, we’re about to get into the paperback. So I’m sure some people have already read it, but a lot of people haven’t. And so I’d love to get a sort of spoiler free intro to the book, setting up just some of the characters, the plot all that good stuff.

I’ll jump in and if I missed anything good, Alex can help me. So the book is really centered around our main character, Margot, it’s set in Indiana, where I’m from, and she has to move back home to Wakarusa, Indiana to help take care of her uncle, who has dementia. And in doing so she’s you know, she’s a journalist, she’s always been kind of fascinated with this case of a girl that she grew up with who was murdered. But it kind of all comes to a head when she moves back and a similar crime happens to the one that happened to her friend 20 years ago. And she kind of sets out to try and solve it once and for all. And I think that’s like the best I can do without spoilers.

For sure, I mean, that enough, was enough to draw me in. And obviously, a lot of our listeners are saying, Jenna, you forgot to mention something very important. And here’s the thing I want to talk about you all as writers and about as you as creators of this book, but I think many of our listeners are going to be like, doesn’t actually have a little podcast that people may have heard of. And of course, you have the Crime Junkie podcast and your entire podcast network audiochuck, which is huge and does amazing work. And is something that I think so many of our listeners will have come back to again and again and again. But I’d love to sort of hear about the journey from one to the other and how you both started writing mysteries and reading mysteries. I know for me, it’s something that was like handed down in my family. And my mom always read them and I would like take paperbacks. And so I’d love to sort of hear how you all both got into crime fiction, mysteries, all that good stuff.

Alex, you want to start?

Alex Kiester

I always knew I wanted to be a writer from the age of like, seven. Literally, all of my old like childhood diaries are full of fictional stories. And I honestly didn’t realize that that was a bit unusual until I was an adult and started talking about it with my friends. And they were like, No, my diary, you know, was full of life full of my life. Exactly. Like going into college. I knew I wanted to get a degree in creative writing, which is what I did. And then after graduation, I sort of just like tap dance around the industry getting jobs, I got a job as a copy editor or a copywriter and then a book editor. And I also like was writing the entire time and had to get all these jobs to sort of bankroll that habit. So I was like a Zumba instructor. I was a casting assistant. But the whole time I was writing books. And crime always just felt very organic for me. My first book that I ever wrote at the age of seven, was about a haunted house. So like, I just I always had that sort of like preoccupation with darkness and also puzzles and mysteries. So crime always felt like my bread and butter.

I think I would love to read a crime novel about a Zumba instructor. I think that would be very funny.

Oh my gosh, that’s, that’s amazing. Thank you for planting that seed in my brain.

Yet for me, I like a very different trajectory. So I very much like you. I always say my mom and her mom before her they were like the OG crime junkies. And so the people always asked like, oh, what made you want to write fiction? And I’m like, this isn’t like a departure. I feel like this is me going back to how it actually started because it started with Nancy Drew and then my mom would I vividly have this memory of us reading Agatha Christie, like on this road trip we were reading And Then There Were None and like the road trip like we got home but I was like Mom, we have to finish we like went to her room like finish the last couple of chapters. So I have always loved crime fiction. I grew up like a very differently like I felt like I had to be very practical. And so if you would have asked me like five years ago or six years ago, before I started the podcast, like, Are you a creative person? I’m like, absolutely not like, I went to school for biological sciences. I did genetic research out of school because I was like, I was just I don’t know what again, there’s a lot in my background that like, I think, led me that way. And then, but when I look back, I have — so as you were writing books, I have, like an abundance of homemade murder mystery movies, that, like are painful to watch now, but I was always doing it. And I looked back at my English classes, and I was like, Oh, my God, if I don’t make my teacher cry, or like, be terrified, like, I didn’t do my job. And so there was this love of writing, I found an outlet for it more in the spoken word. So writing, writing for podcasting. And to come into writing a book, you know, I did podcasting for a few years before I decided I wanted to venture into a novel. And it was because I had this story kind of like, marinating in me. And I knew as fiction I was, like, I knew it wasn’t right for a podcast. It wasn’t right for like any other kind of medium. I had, you know, a window into, and someone had approached me about writing a memoir. And I was like, at the time, I was like, I think it was like 31, 32. And I was like, yeah, that no one needs a memoir for me yet. Like, I haven’t done enough. No, thank you. But I was like, I would like to try this. Could like, could that be an option?

I think that’s so often like we get in these ideas of like, we have to have these practical outlets for our creative ventures, because it doesn’t seem viable. And it doesn’t seem like oh, you know, it might not work out and yet, then when you do get that, just that tiniest push into it, you’re like, oh, wait, there’s more here than like I ever could have imagined possible.

Yeah. I have a question real quick. Ashley, do you have those videos still? And are you willing to show them to me?

You don’t I know if I do. I don’t know if I have that. My aunt has I think one of them because I did it every summer when I would go to my grandpa’s house. Yeah, we have filmed them there. But I keep brought it recently. I think I might have a DVD challenge is coming to my house in like a week. It’s out it’s so bad.

I’m so excited. We have Saturday night plan.

This is this is behind the scenes info right now, just between Alex’s diaries of fictional crime and Ashley’s video, you know, your foray into filmmaking, I think we really could create the All Good People Here behind the scenes.

I even did commercials, like there are commercials in between, it’s terrible.

You had to advertise, how else are you going to support those movies being made, if you’re not making advertising money.

It all comes together. Even then you were like, this is how the industry works. And I know it now. And you were just prepping for all that was going to come later. I think so often, too. Like, there’s that community aspect to mystery people or crime fiction people or true crime people that like you have it from your relatives or you know, there’s like those little intros that are so important. And then when you find other people in life, like podcasting communities and all this stuff, it’s like, oh, wait, there were always other people like me out there. And I wonder too, so getting them into like, actually creating the book, how did the two of you come into this collaboration process together?

Well, so once I decided I wanted to do a novel, I knew I needed help, because I at that point, had only ever written for like the spoken word. And I knew it was going to be very different. I wanted, I sat down, I said, if it’s not a number one New York Times bestseller, like I failed. I had to find a great writer who can help me translate a story onto the page and so my agent sent me like a stack of manuscripts. I think it was like sick. I remember just being in bed. And Alex’s was the first one that I read. And I loved it. And I was like, this is exactly the kind of like style that I that I would read. It’s so like, tangible, it’s so relatable. And I was, first one I was like this is I don’t need to read more. I love this. Let’s, let’s try it, then the pandemic, we will had a great, like she was going to come because I wanted to set it in Wakarusa, Indiana near where I grew up. And it was going to be you know, we’re going to have like this week together, and I’m going to show her around, and then the pandemic. And so we had to write the entire book together over zoom.

It was way, it was really hard because now Ashley and I are working on our second book together. And we were able to have like an in person writing retreat like we were supposed to have the first time. And it’s just like, it made me realize how conducive that is to the creative process because when you’re doing something over zoom, it wasn’t organic, but it was like you kind of have to come with your speaking pieces, and it feels really rigid. And then when you’re in person, we were able to have those moments where we were just like, quiet like drinking coffee. And then one of us would have like, I have an idea moment, and then we were able to talk about it. So it felt so much more fluid. So I feel like it’s a miracle that we managed to write the book that we did, because we, you know, we were separated by so many miles. But you know, we made it we were also we joke we like did it at the worst time in like both of our lives.

We say we met the worst versions of each other. Like, I had so much happening in the business, so much transition. And then like cut to, because we started it’s like, it’s like a year and a half process. And I think like, eight months into me being pregnant or something. I’m like, by the way, I’m having a baby in like a minute.

And I think really right now at any moment.

10:57

We turned in like the last draft the day I went into labor.

That’s wild.

Yeah. I mean, I Yeah. And then I was like, very, I’m like a little type A, like, I have some I tend to be more neurotic. And so it was just like, I was doing this for the first time. I had written books by myself. But I felt this pressure of like, well, I don’t want to let Ashley down. You know, I didn’t like it was just like such a different process. So I was like this neurotic little writer. So it was tough for me to say, we really overcame a lot of obstacles here.

I think it shows I mean, not that it shows that you are going through struggles, but it shows that you were able to sort of come together in a really meaningful way. Because at no point as you read it, as you’re moving through it, there’s no points that feel like, oh, there’s like conflicting ideas, or some piece that like doesn’t fit, you know, it feels really like cohesive and put together. So I think you really did a testament to each other, for creating something and especially to I think sometimes when you’re going through your like toughest times, that’s when like the best creative things can happen.

And I think Ashley and I have this sort of like an unspoken rule of like checking your egos at the door, like in none of our editorial meetings, do we ever, like get bogged down by like defensiveness, or like possessiveness over an idea, like, it’s a very, like, free, safe environment. So like, ultimately, we always, we have the same values when it comes to creative projects. Like, we want to put the book first and link the audience first. So I think that’s why we’re always able to, like, come to a consensus about what’s right for the book.

Which I think is interesting, because something like podcasting, or doing some other mediums, there is a lot more collaboration, but historically, you know, typically, in writing, it is a pretty singular activity, you know, one person putting all themselves into it. So I bet it’s interesting to sort of go into a medium that isn’t really designed for collaboration and to create something really fun out of it.

Yeah, and I think we didn’t know it at the time until we did our second right here and be like, our center best friends. We are so freakin similar. We truly love so much of the same stuff. And you know, each one of us on our own are creative, but there’s actually something about coming together and making these books that that like amazing things happen the way that we are able to like just keep bouncing ideas off of each other and like adding in you know, like taking a good idea and making it great. I mean, we spent three days together and had like our second book is like, like we had a full outline of this like yeah, bomb ass second book.

There was definitely a moment on that weekend. I think we were it was like the second night and we were like, it was actually this, you know, big workday. We were getting sushi. And we started laughing about something. And we had that moment, like, kind of in Stepbrothers, where they’re like “did we just become best friends”

I think like, you can definitely, I think there’s like a magic there in this next book. I mean, I hope there’s magic and all good people here too. But I think there’s going to be like some, some little magic in this next book.

That’s very exciting, because I feel like there is a connection in that first book. So if you’re saying it gets even better than that, like, is going to be so much fun to read, especially because this book is I would generally call a page turner, at least. I mean, there’s so many things in this thrilling adventure that I was like, there can’t be another. Like you can’t give me another twist. I can’t handle it. And yet there were just more. And every time I was like, Oh, of course and going back and sort of putting the pieces together as you come through this story, which I wish I could say more about but I really want people to be able to experience it firsthand because I went into it not knowing anything about it the first time I read it, and that was the best way now I feel like you know if I was even worried like googling things, like I was like, I don’t want to get spoiled because I’m that kind of person. But how was like researching things that you wanted to incorporate into this book because there’s a lot of really great detail about investigative journalism. There’s this great stuff about the town. There’s great stuff about so many of the pieces. I wonder how you sort of organized all those details together?

Well, I mean, to start, it was really important for me that it felt authentic. So a, I knew I wanted to set it where I grew up. So I actually picked the town that for people who do listen to Crime Junkie, my co-host, Brit lived in, so I spent, like so much time there, but it’s very teeny, tiny, quaint town, just outside of where I actually grew up. And so I wanted to make that seem authentic. So obviously, I knew a ton. But I also connected Alex with Brit to, like, make sure it really came across what it’s like to like, spend every waking moment there. And then it was really important for me, I was like, you know, my audience expects true crime, so like nothing in this could be forced or fake. Like it was one of like my big pet peeves when I read or watch anything, where I’m like, that’s not how it really happened like that detectives just not going to like, give you what you want, or hand the file over like, and while it makes for easier writing and like and getting you moving forward, it was really important to me that it had to feel authentic and how it would really develop for our main character. And so again, I know a ton of that, like, procedurally, I know a ton about true crime, the DNA and how it works, how people talk, but I also had since our main character was a journalist and Alex connected with Delia, Delia is a dear friend of mine and hosts the investigative show for us. And so she’s been a journalist for a number of years. And talk to Alex through that. I think I hooked you up with an old detective, so it was — was there anyone else that we talked to? I know you talked to someone else, but there was a whole plotline that didn’t actually make it in?

That plotline? Yeah. I mean, I think we have for me, like the biggest answer that question is like, actually, like, in general, brings so much authenticity. And like she said, it does make it harder. So sometimes I’ll be like, can we just like, do this? And she’s like, No, and I’m like, okay, okay. Like, obviously, like, I want to do it. But it’s just the level of authenticity that I think it’s hard to find, like in other books, because it’s really hard to research that. I mean, I’ve written crime fiction before. And I’ve done hours and hours and hours of research, and there’s just a level of authenticity that is really hard to establish without somebody who’s kind of like, in that world, which actually of course is. Yeah, I mean, so I talked to Ashley, obviously a bunch for the setting and yeah, we talked to Britt, Britt was fantastic. She would do like videos of the local grocery store, which I thought I mean, how much different can a grocery store be? Let me tell you what, Wakarusa grocery stores are very different grocery stores than we have an Austin. And then the homicide detective and then Delia were super, super helpful.

I think that level of detail is really apparent. There’s definitely things that I was going through as I was reading, and I’m like, Oh, I’ve never actually seen that written out in the book. Like, yeah, I’ve seen that and procedurals or like in other crime stuff, but I’ve never seen it incorporated into a thriller. And that just that layer really brings you in even further. And you’re like, Yeah, I accept that. This is what’s happening. And I this is a real thing. I love that. And also, the thing that got me so connected to this book was Margot herself, just like her voice is so good and so strong. And I really was like, in as soon as I started to learn who she was, I was like, Oh, I can definitely be on board with this girl. I know who she is. So I want to talk about sort of how Margot came to be in the way that she is now her voice sort of all the pieces of her.

It started with you so you can kick it off.

I always like to have sort of like a window into the characters that I’m working on. And I think the window into Margot, for me was her sort of tenacity in this case. I mean, she’s very, very dogged on this case, to the point where maybe it’s to her detriment at some point, she kind of like pushes people a little too hard. But I think Margot, for me was a little bit therapeutic because I am such a people pleaser. And I’m always polite. And I found when I was like writing some of her actual dialogue when she’s like pushing up against people, I was like, this is what I want to say, you know, when I’m trying to get to the bottom of something or like I want to push back. And so I felt like it was just sort of this like organic voice of like that most like dogeared most kind of like brassy, a little bit woman that is inside me and sometimes I don’t always let out so I would say that’s my that was my window into her. What about you, Ashley?

For me like some of the most important parts were or her relationship with her uncle. So I had my grandfather moved in with us when he had dementia. So like that like dynamic of living with someone, I wanted to make sure that that felt really authentic, which is a lot of feedback that we got from readers afterwards. It just made me feel really, really good. And then I mean, like I just so again, the time that we’re like putting this all together is like, I’m trying to not only run a business, but grow a business and hire people during the middle of a pandemic, we had a couple of really big projects going on. And then I’m like pregnant and I remember feeling like I was getting pulled in so many directions. And like, can I do it, my failing at everything by trying to do everything. And I think that there’s a little bit of that in her too, you know, she’s trying to be there for her family. She’s trying to like, keep her job, she’s trying to stay true to herself and in her passion and like, and like knowing something’s there and trusting her gut. And that was really important for me to get across as well.

I really liked what you said Ashley, about the relationship between her and her uncle, because that was such an important part to me, as well, I also my grandmother had Alzheimer’s. And whenever anybody asked, like, what’s your favorite element of the book, it’s that relationship, because it’s, it has so much sadness and darkness. But in doing in writing that there was a lot of like moments of brightness there, too. So that was, I just want to echo that that was really important that I think we got that right.

I definitely think it helps to make her deeper than sometimes the leads we get in procedurals, they can be a little like, one sided, or they can be a little like cookie cutter of okay, this is the kind of person that is investigating a crime or especially in you know, some of these big series where we’ve got characters over years and years and years, but you give us a really good snapshot into who she is at this moment. And it really makes the reading experience better. Because, yes, there’s all these crazy other things that are happening. But if we’re not caring about her, it’s really hard to be in her world fully. So moving on, from Margot, who I love, and I could talk about forever, because really, I was like, I could read 50 books about her. I love the way that this book is propulsive. I mean, all thrillers are on paper, supposed to have all this suspense and all of these twists and turns, and they can have that. But there’s something different about the way that this really moves all the way through, and you never know exactly where you’re at even every time you think you have a handle on who might have committed some of the crimes or who these people really are. There’s always another thing and it’s kind of working on two levels, you obviously have the events of like, the crimes and what’s related to it. But you also have this sort of like, small town gossip side to it that I love. Because I’m from the Midwest, there’s a lot of small towns, and I know a lot of those things where it’s like, yes, there’s, you know, all the things that are happening in the world. But it’s also like, did you see who went where, and with whom, and wearing what, that I love those inclusions as well, that sort of make the small town feel like a character all in itself? And I wonder, I guess my thought is just how do you go about creating all those suspenseful moments into something that feels realistic? And how do you sort of propel that through.

I give most of the credit to like the pacing of the novel to Ashley because she’s such a keen eye for like, this is dragging. And so, I mean, Ashley gets a lot of credit for that, that just that tight pacing?

I think that to me, for me, it comes back to having lived in like the real stories for so long. And not only like personally living in them and knowing what I find compelling. And what I find, like the twists that take my breath away in real cases, but having had an audience of millions of people give me like almost instantaneous feedback for you know, years leading up to this. Like, I knew what was going to be the aha moments what was going to be the like, I didn’t see it coming. I you know, and I do get I get a sense for when someone’s gonna, like, turn off the podcast if I don’t like get through it. And I know when someone’s gonna, like, put the book down and maybe come back tomorrow or what’s going to be like, I booked just like one more chapter which is like always what I’m always how I feel. I’m like, one more, one more and that’s, you know, it’s such a good book.

I think we have very similar, Ashley and I have very similar like reading tastes. We both love those books that are like, twist, twist, twist. I mean, I love the kind of book where I am surprised on the last page. And I think that, of course, we’re not going to talk about the ending here. But I would love to say that the ending is, you know, a big surprise for people and there is a big twist and you don’t necessarily know gotten, you know, even leading up to that last chapter. It’s like and to wait what exactly is happening here. So I think we just brought in that like taste level into the book.

I’ll absolutely say I was turning the pages and turning the pages. And then I saw acknowledgments. And I said, Excuse me, no, there needs to be more pages.

There are things about like traditional literature that like I just don’t like. And I like this is where like, sometimes I’ll like will like, go back and forth and I sometimes I give up. And then sometimes I’m like, fight for it. And it’s one that I fight for is like, I’m like a terrible reader because like, I don’t like wrap up chapters like so if once I know what happened, like, I’m done reading, like, I’m sure everyone’s happy. But along again, I think it also comes from, like, the true crime space is like You very rarely get everything tied up into a nice bow. And I wanted, I wanted people to keep reading to the very end for the content, you don’t know the story until you finish it. And I wanted them to leave with a sense of unease. And you know what I mean, like, the way that like, you actually do leave most of our podcasts listening to it’s like, not like, the real world and not everything’s perfect.

I would always rather have like, I would always rather my reaction to a book be like, slam it shut and throw it across the room than to be like, you know, just like, Yeah, you know, so I think we got her like, always, it’s so funny, because the ending is so polarizing, and people were always like, oh, like, how did you know you wanted to do that? And I was like, that’s one of the things that Ashley and I knew from the very beginning, we always knew how it was going to end like the middle changed a lot. But the ending was always the same.

It’s not a typical thriller ending, like you said, it’s not the something that you anticipate going in. And yet, when you get there, and everything clicks, you’re like, things that happened 22 chapters back, you’re like, oh, and it just, it’s satisfying, in a different way. Because all of the pieces have moved into where they need to be. And it makes a lot of sense. I think, especially because you do different POVs, as you go through, you’ve got these two, switching sort of back and forth between the past and the present, I guess. And it really sort of brings multi dimensions to this where you’re like, I feel like you give us all the pieces but you make us work to put it together ourselves, then, yeah, well, that. And I love the character of Kristy in a lot of ways as well, I the like, readers will go up and down with her through the book through the journey, but you’ve created complicated characters that have narratives they’ve got starts and finishes, and they grow in between. And I think that’s something important in thrillers and I think important in crime fiction to understand that, like, not everything is exactly as you see it right at the beginning. And you have to put aside a lot of your own judgments and your own biases in order to see like, what’s actually there.

Yeah, it was a big a big part of the theme of All Good People Here is like this idea that you don’t know what’s happening behind closed doors, you don’t know people’s own stories or motivations. And not, you know, the truth of life is like, no one is all good or all bad. And sometimes you have good intentions that result in bad results that make you know, if someone doesn’t know who you are, or every detail, and you can’t always explain yourself, make you look like a bad person. And so that was really, I think, important for me to capture because we know one of the things like even though it’s a fiction story, like I hope themes are taken away by the reader that like apply to real life. And I’ve seen the way people make assumptions and re attack people who have already been victimized by making assumptions. And I hope to kind of like even if it’s a fictional character, like give a little bit of a glimpse into those, you know, homes and those places that we don’t get to see where we’re all that like nuance happens.

So Ashley and I are both obsessed with Gillian Flynn. And there’s a quote from her and that’s she said something like, I’m gonna write women, female characters who you might not always like, and sometimes they may like scare you something like that. And I always love that because there’s such, historically there’s such a premium on female characters having to be likable. You know, like, there’s so much criticism of characters like, oh, well, I just didn’t like her.It’s an interesting reaction. Like, why do you think you have to, you know, necessarily like every character, and like Ashley said, like, our characters are complicated. We’re not in the business of writing like simplistic characters. And I think as you said, it really comes through in Kristy’s whole narrative are can you see her change and grow a lot throughout the story?

And so am I To the story is about not necessarily those exact moments where a crime may have been committed, but all of the like interconnecting pieces that lead someone there or lead a town there or make the conditions right for something like that to happen like, especially in a small town setting where secrets are a premium that sort of creates these conditions for something like this to happen and not be solved because everyone withdraws and pulls away. And I think you really showcase that well.

Thank you. Yeah,

Mostly because I love small town stuff. Because we see so much what we see so much crime fiction, I think take place in these huge cities. You see crime fiction in New York and Chicago and DC and all these other places. But it sort of leaves by the wayside. A lot of people who aren’t living what we would consider normal, everyday lives who still have these things happen in their own communities. And we have to look at those two.

It opens up a lot of like opportunities to write fun kind of side characters. I know Ashley, in particular light loves Linda.

I said I want to play Linda in the movie even though I’m too young.

I am here for you playing Linda, Ashley, I will advocate for that. until my dying breath.

We have so much AI technology now we can age you up to fit, I’m sure.

Yeah, it’d be great.

Or we could be like, this is Linda Jr. She’s Linda’s daughter.

Linda’s my mom. Yeah, exactly.

Everyone just doesn’t ask questions. And they’re like, Yeah, we did. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that that’s great. I mean, there is so much cinematic, like energy to this. And there’s so many moments where I’m like, picturing it in my head like I would on a big screen. And that’s like the most fun I think of like crime fiction for me and mysteries, because it just innately has that playability in your head. Something I really, I guess maybe one of the things I love the most about this book, in comparison to a lot of other crime fiction is the way that you’re never really focused on the people who may perpetrate crimes. This is really about victims. And this is about the people that are affected. And I think that that’s so important. I think so often, in a lot of this space, it can get skewed into gruesome details and all that stuff. But you really make sure to center the people that are the most affected. And I just like to, I guess, talk about that as a concept, I think, because it’s something that I know comes up a lot in your work, Pashley. And it’s something that you’re really focused on. And I think it’s really important, especially as we have, like, younger generations of people getting into crime fiction and mystery into crime to sort of start them on the right foot and be like, Yeah, look, we’ve done a lot of stuff in the past. And there’s been some stuff out there that has not always focused on the right things. But now we’re going to do what we need to do.

Yeah, and I don’t know. I mean, like, I want to say it wasn’t intentional. Like, again, I wanted to focus on the themes, so you don’t know what’s happening and family and it wasn’t like, Oh, we’re not going to focus on the perpetrator. It’s, it’s just what I like live and breathe and believe and so like it, I think it just came through in that. I don’t find like the psychology of serial killers fascinating the way that some do so because I don’t have an interest to really like, break apart that psyche. Like, it just never even occurred to me that like to spend time there. The world that I live in and working with working with real victims and real families. Is that world and again, that’s what I know. I don’t I don’t know, you know, I don’t study BTK or Jeffrey Dahmer. I don’t think I could have done that authentically. And, you know, there’s I think there’s a place for people who study that it’s not me.

And speaking from like, a fiction standpoint, I, I always say like, I’m not really interested in seeing bad people do bad things, because you expect bad things from bad people, right? So I’m really interested in good people who do bad things, because I think we all like to think of ourselves as good people. But I think circumstances are so much more powerful than we realize. And I think if we just kind of like, as a writer, we like put ourselves in certain character shoes like, well, what would I do in that situation? And I think we use this book as an opportunity to explore that.

You definitely give readers a lot of opportunities to put themselves in that moment. And there are some incredibly tense moments and decisions where I’m like, well, I don’t know if I would have made that decision. But I can see why it’s there. And we’ll see what happens next, which is something that is so important, I think, in literature like understanding why people make the choices they do and it can be in genre fiction. I think so often, people are like, well, we go to literary fiction for these things, or we go certain places, but these are real people and doing real things just the same and there’s so much more it in a mystery to teach us about the sometimes wild ways that humans react when they’re put under pressure.

Well, that’s great feedback. Because I always say like, in books, like, I just want to think and I want to feel, you know, I, that’s what I want from a book. And that’s what I want readers to feel. So that’s, that’s really nice to hear that it, it did kind of put you in that position of like, well, what would I do?

Ashley, was this experience quite as you expected? Was creating your first book and putting all this out there, what you anticipated it would be? And was it really different from what you’ve done before? Or did you find it just all kind of fits together?

I mean, it was it was different, just in that the process was so much different, like I, I have little to no patients. And so the medium of podcasting is great for me, because like, I can make something and put it out and like I said, get like instant feedback on how people are receiving it. So to take something that we worked on for a year and a half, and then then they’re like, Okay, we’re gonna like put it out in the world, like a year later. I’m just like, like, the amount of patients I had to learn. So it wasn’t like, you know, the idea of like, putting something together and like, giving it to the world, like that all felt the same as like the podcast, but it was it was just such a different process.

I can imagine. I mean, and it’s like nerve wracking in a different way. Because there’s absolutely something like intense about saying, here it is. And people immediately say, Okay, here’s my thoughts. But I’m guessing you also have so much of a chance to like, you can fix things in real time. You’re like, someone tells you Oh, there’s something wrong. And you’re like, Okay, next episode, I’ve got it fixed it. You’re like, oh, it’s out there forever.

Well and like it was really interesting, because, you know, I like I came into an industry of podcasting that was like, it’s still finding itself. And like, I’m kind of leading the way and creating it. And so there was so much freedom about like, you know, how I’m going to do things, common market, things like what that looks like, I’ve gotten to know my audience so much. And then to step into a world that has been very well established, and the back and forth I’ve had with going from like, well, these are the rules. And the saying, well, I promise you like, the people who are going to buy my book, I know them and like some of the rules don’t apply was a really interesting dynamic.

I’m sure and I’m sure for Alex to going in and being like, you know, you’ve written books by yourself, you’ve created things and now to like, sort of partner in and be like, alright, we’re on a sort of a different journey. I bet that was a little bit exciting and strange as well.

I mean, it was like, like I said, I’m just like, a neurotic little person. So when I first heard about the opportunity, I was like, thinking of all the things, the ways in which it could go wrong, like, what if we don’t? What if our creative like, you know, styles don’t mix? You know, what if I let her down? What if I can’t meet the deadline, all of that. And then once I kind of started talking to her, like, over the phone, I was like, Okay, this is gonna work. Like I like the idea. And then of course it did. And I will say, like, writing a book with somebody is way more fun than writing a book alone.

You get to have an extra outlet for all those thoughts that like bubble up as you work through.

Yeah, you’re just not alone in the process, like Ashley and I text a lot. And we have meetings all the time. And it’s like, it’s just nice to have two brains on every problem. And, and like she said, we’ve become really good friends. So it’s like it’s hanging out. It’s, at the same time, like hanging out with a friend while we’re also producing such a product that we’re like so passionate about.

That’s great. I mean, I think that’s all we can ever hope for. I think you can really tell when you’re reading something or listening to something when the people who are creating it have a passion in it like you can feel when they put their own soul and their own, like care and love into it and it makes it better. So I have to ask, How does it feel now going into the paperback release of the book, like it’s been out for a while the reception is so good, how has it felt to sort of have that response? As you’ve been going through this past?

Ashley and I were talking earlier, we’re like, this book feels so long ago like we were knee deep in our next book. So it’s so it’s so interesting to spend like all of my time and energy on the next book and then like, Oh, we’re gonna talk about this other book. So like, to be perfectly honest, like it feels far away. But I am so excited for new readers to you know, come to this story. Because when you talk about it, you’re like, oh, yeah, I do really love this book. And I love all the twists and turns and I love people to experience that ending. So it is it is very exciting.

And hoping that we get a little bit of that like influx again, of new people finding it. Because that was my that was truly my favorite part, I knew what we were writing was going to hit the spot for crime junkies, like no doubt in my mind. But it was actually it was a big thing that I thought for, they wanted to put like the Crime Junkie logo on the cover and say, you know, from the host of Crime Junkie, and I was like, No, like I, for me, to for me to feel good about it. Like, I need this to stand on its own, even if nobody knows who I am, or that I can attach a crime junkie and the people who find it, and then find out, you know, that I have this other show or what I do. So I’m excited, like, potentially for that again, because I think the paperback will reach a whole new subset. And I know the crime junkies have already read it. So I’m excited to see who it finds next.

I bet the crime junkies are still going to be going out and getting their paperback copy.

They’re like, I can’t tell you so many people are like, well, I bought one. And then I saw that you were doing a signed copy. So I bought another one.

And I feel like book people are also like so many book people are also podcast people. And I feel like there’s always that like collector aspect of you’re like, Well, when I love something, I need to have it in every way that it exists. But I think it’s also important to be like, this isn’t a crime junkie novel. This isn’t like a novelization of something from the pocket like podcast, this is something that stands is something that stands on its own, it feels like a piece of any other, you know, thriller group that you’d have like this deserves to stand right there with them. I think it’s great read, whether it’s just like Oh, another podcast or writing a book or in it. It’s so much more beyond that, because it has true motion. It has true feeling it has all of that it’s something really special. So I also I mean, we talked a little bit about influences about books that you’ve loved and mysteries, but I wonder if there’s anything else you’d like to say about anything that really influenced this book or something you’re reading now that you love anything you want to just talk about your literary influences.

I mean, literally, we are talking about dealing with life. I can’t tell you the amount of time Alex and I have talked about Gillian Flynn. It is excessive. I just like it not only I mean, again, her stories are just absolutely fantastic. Her characters are fantastic. But I heard something recently that I actually told Alex where I like I heard Gillian say that like nobody wanted Gone Girl. Everyone’s like, don’t want it. Like this isn’t like a good book. She like finally got someone to pick it up. And it ends up being like the best thing. And so I like it’s a little bit of my like inspiration and driving force when someone’s like, that’s not how it works. That’s not what you do. And for us to, like, you know, she’s like, point back to and say, well, Gillian did it. I can do it.

Absolutely.

Yeah, I obsess about Gillian. I mean, Ashley and I like literally every time we’re together, we’re like, Okay, wait, so, Gillian, we just, I mean, we talked about it on our on our writing retreat. I bought all the Gillian Flynn books for inspiration. In one morning, I just was like reading it out loud to Ashley like over our coffee. We’re like, oh, so good. Oh, good.

One day, if I could write an opening line like this.

I love that. I could see Margo out there in like in Sharp Objects or in Gone Girl, I could see her sort of running over into another world, because it has sort of that, like, there’s depth, there’s darkness. And it is truly like a woman’s story in a lot of ways. These sort of like, pieces that come together. I can see them all working in a way.

I love it. I feel like I literally try and read like everything that comes out. Because I mean, there’s got to know you got to know what’s happening, right? You got to know what’s out there. You got to know what people are doing. Because if you don’t know what’s already been done, like how are you going to surprise people which is such a big part of it for me, like, how do I make sure you get to the end and you’re like, ah, got me.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I talked about Gillian Flynn all the time. But there have been fabulous thrillers that came out this year. Like some highlights for me were I Have Some Questions For You by Rebecca Makkai. I just finished Bright Young Women by Jessica Knoll, which like oh, so good. Riley Sager’s latest book, The Only One Left. So I mean, yeah, like Ashley said, like, I try to read everything that comes out, especially thrillers to know like, What the landscape is like, right?

I feel so like so many thriller readers, too. They’re reading everything. So I imagine it’s like that thing. If you’re like, I have to know because what I can’t accidentally put something in that’s already been out there. Yeah. And it always has to feel fresh. But I think that that comes so much from the voices that you put into this story. And the way that it sort of framed it a little differently than a lot of other thrillers. It keeps it very fresh as you’re going in. Like I said, I was reading beyond the last page. I was flipping the cover. I was looking under the dustjacket for more. So you’ve hinted a little bit that there is another book come saying, Is there anything you can share with us? If not just saying, Jenna? No, of course not. You have to wait like everybody else.

A little one of the I mean, we can share like one of the themes. So the next book is really what I can share with you. It’s not a sequel. That’s the number one question everyone asked, was it a sequel? And no, we wanted a new place, new characters, a new story something to get our juices flowing and excited again. And plus, like, I literally like, as soon as I’m done at the first one like that second story is already like building inside of you like we’re getting real close to being done at this one. Like, I’ve already got the third one like I wish I’m like living in that one now. And, again, I have no patience. And one of the things that we really want to explore were like, was the relationship between sisters we hadn’t seen a lot of that in the thriller world. There’s actually been a couple of things, I think, since we started writing that have come out, but it really centers around the bond of sisters. I think that’s, you know, without giving away too much it can leave give you a little taste. Yeah. That in Indiana again.

I love that. I can’t wait. I think people are going to be so excited to hear that there’s something new, I think there are going to be people screaming into the air that it’s not a sequel, and that there’s not more there, but that’s fine, and they’re just gonna have to get over it. But I know that whatever it’s going to be it’s going to have twists and turns and things I never even expected. So we’re all very excited. And I can’t wait for people to get their hands on the paperback of All Good People Here. I can’t wait for them to sort of dive into this world if they haven’t already been there. So Ashley and Alex, thank you so much for joining us today.

Thanks for having us.